AIBU not to be more cross with DD?

[shallichangemyname]

DSis and I have always had a fractious relationship. She is a stroppy sort (to put it mildly).
I have 4 DCs. She has 1 DD, who is same age as my DTs. DN has always been a very difficult child. DSis doesn't handle it well and none of us ever want to challenge her or even try to broach it. DN lies to get my DCs in trouble, has terrible tantrums (even at 13), singles out DS2 for nasty treatment (in the form of continual nasty comments - eg whenever he speaks she'll say "nobody's interested in anything you have to say") and always has to have her own way. She has terrible social skills which are not helped by DSis's approach to parenting. I encourage my DCs to make allowances and to be fair they are very good but they find her visits hard.
Unknown to me or my DCs DN has been having difficulties at school which DSis thinks is bullying and they have changed her school. Having g had no discussion at all I have no idea what form this bullying has taken and I also have no idea how much of it is true (there's a fine line between being bullied and just not being popular and having a few spats with your classmates).

St the weekend DN (who lives 4 hours away) joined my DD into a group Instagram chat between her and the alleged bullies. My DD knew nothing about it and doesn't know any of these people and had no idea why she was joined to the chat.
DN left the chat.
My DD asked what it was all about and when told rather meanly said "I don't like her much tbh".
First I hear of all this is last night when DSis sends me a screenshot then phones me to tell me about the bullying, how DN had wanted support, how upset she was by the comment (which someone screenshot and sent to her), how my DD should have backed her up etc. I asked why my DD had been joined to a chat where she knew none of the others or what the background was and this didn't seem right to me. DSis started ranting so I hung up. I sent her a nice message to say I couldn't speak to her if she was going to shout and that I still didn't understand why DD had been dragged into it. She messaged me back to say DD was a "little cow" and took after me because I "don't give a shit".
DF returned from an evening at the fireworks. She was feeling a bit guilty and had already messaged DN to apologise but was just totally bewildered by being joined to the chat, with no forewarning.
Sorry for the rant. AIBU in not being really cross with DD? She understands she was wrong but I think DN was wrong to involve her. What do I do re my DSis?

Why would you teach your kids to be tolerant and bite their tongue when someone is routinely being rude to them and treating them badly?

Your DN doesn't sound very likeable, your DD isn't required to like her or put up with her shit.

Even if it was a bit rude your DD has the defence of being 13, how old is your sister?

Just leave them to it, doesn't sound like it will be much of a loss.

I think it's a good life lesson. When they are out in the real world they will meet people who are not nice and will have to handle it. She is family. They know that and they are very good at tolerating it. It's not all bad, I'm sure there are good moments with the bad. But of course the bad stands out more. I get that I shouldn't teach them to be doormats either.
She knows what she did was wrong. She's apologised. She's been blocked and the apology ignored.

Rather than being very cross with her, I'm treating this as a lesson to DD about social media. Of course she should have left the chat and said nothing. Or at least asked her cousin privately why she had been joined and what was going on. Instead she said something mean which will be out there forever and which she knows has upset her cousin deeply. But she's only 13. Old enough to know it was wrong but young enough to make mistakes.

An update.
DSis phoned DM and told her that I was now "dead" to them, as is my DD. She will never visit again (me and DPs live close to each other, she is 3-4 hours away), family Christmas is cancelled, my DCs will never hear from her again (she specifically said no Christmas or birthday cards/gifts). I'm not sure if this "dead to us" nonsense extends to my 3 other DCs or is reserved just for DD and me.
DM had tried to poo-poo the social media aspect of it and moved the conversation on.
I said how stupid it was to teach DN to bear grudges and DM agreed that everyone makes mistakes and there should be forgiveness. She doesn't see what DD did as a heinous crime. But DSis thinks it is.

DM suggested in a couple of weeks I might write to my DSis to say DD sorry and life's too short etc. I wasn't very keen on this. But I'd do it for my mum.

Yesterday DM said she has been mulling it over and plans to phone DSis this week to tell her to stop making a mountain out of a molehill and calm the f down.

I'm just keeping out of it because I think DSis is being utterly stupid. Yes DD was wrong, but she's apologised. DN should never have dragged her into it without first contacting her and explaining the situation (ideally shouldn't have dragged her into it at all).

Your DSis would want to have her blood pressure checked. She's going to do herself an injury with this level of drama in her life.

Let your Mum off to do what she wants but I'd steer well clear, and keep your children out of it too - hopefully your DD has learned her lesson and can move on. As your sister should.

I feel so sorry for your niece. She's going to find life very hard with the course her mother has laid out for her.

Completely agree. I think DM's motivation isn't just to resolve the conflict, she is desperately worried about the example DN is being set. Disowning me and DD is massively OTT, and I just can't be arsed to engage.

DSis phoned DM and told her that I was now "dead" to them, as is my DD. She will never visit again (me and DPs live close to each other, she is 3-4 hours away), family Christmas is cancelled, my DCs will never hear from her again (she specifically said no Christmas or birthday cards/gifts).

I'm afraid in your shoes my reaction would be 'good riddance to bad rubbish'. What a ridiculous response to your DD from your DSis, when she actually apologised spontaneously. I feel particularly sorry for your DM.

Your Dd has apologised.

I would leave them all to the drama.

One thing I would say learning how to get along with people you don’t get on with is not the same as tolerating bad behaviour . The other is this is happening in your home . It is the one place I would want my children to feel safe .

I would not allow my dd to apologise again . I certainly wouldn’t be writing a letter apologising again

Your DD has apologised. Hopefully she has learnt something. Has she’s seen Mean Girls? There is a telephone scene in the film which shows how manipulative people can be with technology, especially social media.

I think your and your DC should be relieved. Although I suspect when you accept your DS’s exile with no complaints she’ll come up with something else.

is the scene I mentioned in case you’re not comfortable with watching the whole thing. I think it’s a 12A but I’m not sure.

Oh gosh, your sister is a real Drama Llama. It must be exhausting just being her. Step back a bit, and downplay to DD. You are a much better role-model of how to handle conflict. Sometimes, people are just going to behave badly in ways you can't control, and you just need to protect your children and yourself from that. You've done what you can here.

It would seem DN is in a very powerful position in the family. I don't feel DD's comment was that bad and feel strongly DN knew she was setting DD up. The apology unprompted from DD should suffice - ie no need for repetition. DD is allowed to not like her cousin - she can factually back this up with examples. DSis comes across as very self-centred drama llama. Enjoy the peace.

Great clip, thankyou. I shall wait to see what the outcome is of DM's phone call. I suspect it will make no difference.

DM suggested in a couple of weeks I might write to my DSis to say DD sorry and life's too short etc. I wasn't very keen on this. But I'd do it for my mum.

Do NOT write to your sister. I think your DM has enabled her throughout her life and your DM continues to be pretty weak with her, as do you. As a family you seem to be bent on repeating the same problems in each generation.

Do not let this doormat behaviour be passed on to your DC (alhough it sounds like it may already be too late). You need to be teaching your kids to stand up for themselves, not roll over and suck up someone being mean to them. You seem to think this is a life lesson as they will meet other mean people in life and have to suck it up. This is so wrong and just seems like you trying to make excuses because you wimp out of confrontation (no doubt learned behaviour from your DM) and are teaching this same wimping out to your kids.

There is nothing wrong with standing up to someone and doing it firmly but politely and respectfully. This is the lesson you should be teaching your kids! But I think it's a lesson both you and your DM need to learn too.

The pressure is already starting for you and your DD to back down and apologise AGAIN so your DM can have a 'happy' family Christmas while your sister and niece get to continue to behave badly. Imagine how appallingly their behaviour will be if they feel they've 'won'. Please all of you (DM included) find a bloody backbone and stand up to your sister. It should have been done years ago but better late than never I guess.

I wouldn't be writing any conciliatory letters, nor would my dc be making any more apologies.

If that was my sister I would have told her to go piss up a rope.

Have you always had to back down to appease your sister? Your mum seems awfully keen for you to grovel. Is that a recurring theme?

It's not so much backing down to appease her. We let her rant about whatever has pissed her off, then when it's over we just move on and behave as if it's never happened. I stand up occasionally but then get shouted at. I then leave and don't initiate the next contact, she does the next time she wants to arrange a visit. My DCs and I talk about it. They know DN's behaviour is ridiculous and that I am proud of the way they handle her so that conflict is minimised.

DM knows it's wrong, and I always ask her why this sort of behaviour was not challenged or dealt with when DSis was younger. She never has an answer. She can see history repeating itself with DN and she's so sad for DN because she will be unhappy.

She knows if she tells it like it is there will be no going back. She doesn't want that and neither do I. I love my sister, difficult as she is. I don't seek her attention (I say that to make it clear she wields no power over me) and we aren't close, but she's my sister and I love her. And I don't want DM to be sad.

I'm not sure that makes us doormats. I think it is a good lesson to understand that some people just aren't that nice and challenging them isn't necessarily the answer. I worked for 10 years in an office where there was a person like her and it was the same there - everyone tolerated it for the sake of overall harmony, but in private acknowledged that it was not really acceptable.

I also think the trouble is because there are 4 of mine and 1 of hers (the DCs I mean) then if my kids stood up to DN it would look like ganging up. My 18y/o is the only one who does intervene to challenge DN's behaviour, but I think it's easier for her because age-wise she's a bit apart from DN and my DTwins (and anyway it seems to achieve nothing).

So your mum won't stand up to your sister so she's piling the pressure on you to make up.

I don't seek her attention (I say that to make it clear she wields no power over me)

I'm sorry but you have allowed your DC to be systematically bullied, failed to protect them, failed to stand up for them and taught them to allow their cousin to ride roughshod over them. Your sister has power over you...unless you would allow anyone else to treat your children in such a way and expect them to 'bite their tongue'?

Yes, they will have to deal with difficult people in the world around them...home ought to be a sanctuary!

Red, mum has backed down from that now and intends to challenge DSis (not over the general issues, but the making a mountain out of a molehill).

But do you not think it's natural to be more tolerant of your family? Would I accept this behaviour from a friend? Hell no. Would I tolerate it from a friend's DC? Possibly if they were a really good friend and I thought my children were able to put up with it without too much hardship (but it would certainly put a strain on things). Would I tolerate it from family? Yes (to a point), because you can't choose your family but you often need them and family, even less than perfect ones, enrich people's lives.

I think "systematic bullying" is putting it a bit strongly. DN is not a pleasant child. She is socially awkward/intolerant. She always wants to be "in charge" and is a terrible know-it-all. She often lies (I think to attention seek from her mother), she is a difficult and fussy eater, she won't take instruction/suggestions from any adult but her mother, she is boastful and whiny and still has tantrums. But it's not ALL bad and whilst it is not ideal it isn't utterly unbearable. However, what is totally unacceptable is that on the last visit in the summer she has started to be horrid to DS2. So far it has not been done in front of me but I know DD1 (18) didn't tolerate it and said something (DM and Aunt said nothing but told me about it). And if it is done in front of me I will say something.

DD didn't know either
I've read the whole chat. It wasn't that bad. It was my DN on the attack, the comments from the other children weren't particularly mean (more defensive) and then she started joining her friends into it (who are classmates so know the background), then my DD was joined.
DSis has now blocked me. I suspect family Xmas is cancelled

I'm not a social media guru but I'm pretty sure that you can only see messages in a group chat from when you've been added so how could you see anything from before your DD was joined?

That discrepancy aside, your niece (and her mum) sound like people I wouldn't want to be around.

My bolding to quote failed.. Sorry.

I'll take the opportunity to say again, in firmer terms, just because they're blood relatives, if they are as you say they are, I'm not sure I'd stay in contact with your sister and niece. They sound terrible.

Oh ok I didn't realise that about Instagram group chats. Well what I saw after she was joined was pretty unremarkable. And DD stayed quiet for some time until after DN left.

But do you not think it's natural to be more tolerant of your family?

Not when it comes to bullying.

But do you not think it's natural to be more tolerant of your family? Would I accept this behaviour from a friend? Hell no

Actually familly should be the ones on your side who stand by you at all costs against the world - not turned inward!!!

You have this wrong OP