Knife crime in London

[wondering1101]

Another fatal stabbing last night - it happened at tea time they said on the news, and a 15 year old died .

I don’t know what the statistics are but well over 100 people have died since the beginning of the year.

I have three secondary school aged dc - AIBU to sometimes want to move away . Not that it’s an option.

I know that statistically the people who die are a tiny percentage of the population (not that that makes it better), but it’s the fact that knives are so commonplace now and the menace is somehow “there”. The fact that you wouldn’t get into an argument with someone on the street (not that that’s what I make a habit of doing!) because you never know what weapons they may have. And while the victims are often involved in gangs (not that that makes it better either), they by no means always are. Some people are just in the wrong place at the wrong time .

What is going to make the situation better?

Poverty, drugs, lack of facilities and positive role models, absent dad's, lack of positive discipline.
There's not just one cause but a whole range of circumstances that create gang culture and violence.

I hate the narrative that when the victims aren’t white they are automatically assumed to be involved in gangs.

Plenty of victims are innocent & are killed or stabbed because they are from the wrong postcode. Even victims carrying knifes are sometimes carrying them for their own protection.

A major problem is drugs & who consumes those drugs? I also think people are wrong if they think that the associated crime doesn’t touch their lives. Yes as a white 30 something women I am less likely to be stabbed but the naice area of SW London where I live has seen a massive increase in burglaries, car theft & muggings. I grew up here & the areas weren’t so naice back in the day, eg you didn’t get into an argument with a stranger because who knows who they were, however it felt a lot safer then & easier to avoid.

Poverty, drugs, lack of facilities and positive role models, absent dad's, lack of positive discipline.
There's not just one cause but a whole range of circumstances that create gang culture and violence

Yes, all of this.

OK, I am going to say the un-sayable. Also we need to recognise it is an overwhelmingly black issue. All the above issues apply to poor white boys, but they are not drawn into the drug/gang culture as much as black boys. This is what needs addressing. Is it racism, is it a lack of community support, is it cultural. I don't know, but I do feel very sorry that these young black boys feel they don't have any other options.

Echoing a similar poster what is the allure of drugs? I always stayed away from them as a kid/teen as this was a way of staying out of trouble & even though it was around me I didn’t see it. I went to university & everyone was doing coke, I get a professional job & my managers would do coke at parties. Drugs have zero appeal to me. The majority of my friends are Londoners as they are school friends same for my husband & not one of us is interested in drugs.

The families of the boys I knew who were stabbed were close, supportive and with strong dads present. It didn’t save them.

I think a lot is about class, if we were talking about Merseyside wouldn’t the majority of victims & perpetrators be white?

As part of a work thing I went to a youth presentation where they talked about knife crime. Apparently the number who actually die is quite small comparatively, but many more young people suffer life changing injuries as a result of being stabbed. We don’t hear about them on the news but the ones who die are just the tip of the iceberg.

There are a lot of interventions for young people in gangs but they have to want the help. Unfortunately selling drugs is easy money and they want the lifestyle that they see the higher members of the gangs living. They don’t realise they’re mostly being used. It is all very complex. The police did an undercover operation a few years back, lasting months where they shut down a big gang. Then the turf wars started over that area and even more people ended up getting hurt. The police reluctantly admitted it would have been better to just leave the original gang in place! There are no easy answers.

Because both victims and perpetrators tend to be young black boys/men, the issue doesn’t get the attention or funds needed to improve things, imo.

Well stop and search used to be a fairly effective policing tool before everyone cried racist and the practice was stopped. There is also a lack of courage from politicians, police and community leaders alike to have a serious discussion as to why the life outcomes of young black men are lagging far behind other groups.

We need parents to take responsibility for their children. The rhetoric “ You can’t know where they are twenty four hours a day” needs changing to “ Make sure you know where your child is at all times and don’t let them carry knives or hang around in gangs”.

We know the highest risk areas and these should be policed to break up groups ‘hanging around’ with a curfew for under 18s. Then there needs to be youth clubs, sporting activities free at point of access, zero tolerance of truancy (with parents held to account). Children at risk of becoming involved in gangs or crime at an early age need moving to state or independent boarding schools outside the area to protect them and improve their life chances. Work or work schemes need to be compulsory with required attendance for anyone found with a knife or drugs. Police powers to stop and search need to be used without fear of claims of racism and in place in schools too. We need to increase policing in those specific areas. An absolute cull on the carrying of knives.

I guess if you’ve spent your early life in Yemen or Somalia, it’s no surprise you find knives more acceptable. If you’re in U.K. and see incredible wealth that is unattainable for you, one might consider criminal wealth. This cultural driver needs to be addressed too.

It has to be a carrot and stick approach. Harsh measures to address gang culture and effective, well resourced support services.

You are assuming parents are universally not taking responsibility- there is a point where the forces of the outside world can overcome been the most diligent parents. And parents don’t always know WHAT to do to keep their children safe when they live in what could almost be called a war zone. Don’t try to make out parents don’t care. They care as much as any parent.

Been = even

I live close to where the 15 year old boy was stabbed, who unfortunately died as a result.

Absolutely horrible to think somebody of that age, a child, could be so caught up in gang culture that things like this become the norm. I'm not suggesting he was, but many in his position are or have been, and it's definitely gang culture which drives the vast majority of incidents like this.

It does seem to be a black issue, and I cannot understand why.

White, far east Asian, European (etc) young boys in the area growing up in council estates have the same opportunities or lack of, and still rarely end up in these gang type cliques who go around stabbing people.

I was watching a documentary on TV last night about gang culture here in London, every young man featured was black.

I'm by no means racist but feel uncomfortable repeating the obvious like this IRL, even if it is glaringly obvious.

Stabbing hotspot of the UK ( if not Europe?) up to about 2010 was Glasgow by a country mile. It's an interesting case study.

Cressida Dicks thinks funding cuts have contributed to it.
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/18/metropolitan-police-cressida-dick-budget-cuts-violent-crime-rise-london

Sorry Cressida Dick not Dicks

It’s mainly young black boys

Who don’t have a huge amount of support or hope

Look at the secondary schools that the white and Asian MC will do anything to avoid

Look at the faces in the Saturday morning football clubs

Look at local authority estates

Look at the faces of city commuters

Look at the number of single mothers

And it’s getting worse in some places not better . This is what we get in a capitalist multicultural society

No idea what to suggest , NOT blaming schools but providing them with more
Money and resources is a good place to start

It was one of the reasons we moved away, not just the deaths but general stabbings for phones etc. Much safer here.

I was listening to an expert on gang crime on tv the other day, can't remember her name. She did say, a couple of years ago stabbings were often about so called "respect", or the perceived lack of it. Now it's all to do with drugs and turf wars. For example, one such gang she mentioned "Mali Boys", mainly Somalian, their territory abutted some other hoodlums domain so there are constant overspill spats. We often hear about gang members glorifying their murderous intentions in so called "grime/drill" videos. It's all very depressing. Added to that we now have the worrying new phenomenon of "county lines" with its pervasive tentacles extending nationwide.

I have seen projects aimed at these kids but it's always things like football and music. Not everyone is going to be able to be a premier league footballer or top rapper! So I feel the focus is all wrong. Yeah I get that it's the things they are interested in but surely it would be better to get them into trades, or IT if they're good at it, things like that. Something realistic and achievable.

It's hard when a lot of these guys see their mum's working long hours for minimum wage just to stay afloat, and they live in a grotty flat on a bad estate. They don't see themselves as having anything to lose. Or anything to aspire to. For them prison isn't worse than where they are, it's just different. So they really don't care.

I have seen guys in a cycle of being in prison for a year or two, come out, make good money selling drugs. They spend it on flash clothes and bottles of champagne in clubs. Then after a while get caught and the same thing over again. It is a lifestyle. It's not a legal one, or one most of us would choose, but it is a lifestyle.

Change needs money, and quite frankly spending money on the kind of intervention programs that work aren't vote friendly.

I've also read another factor is that some young male gang members have lived in a home country, Somalia for example, where violence and lawlessness exists all round them and they have become desensitised to both.

@carbuncleonapigsposterior

You are absolutely right about this. This is a part of taking in refugee's/asylum seekers, that no one likes to talk about. I'm not saying we shouldn't take in those in need but children especially coming from places like that really need some sort of counselling or programme to deal with that fact. We can't just think oh but we've given you a flat and some benefits so now you have to be eternally grateful and abide by our laws. It doesn't work like that.

projects aimed at these kids

You mean boys. Females do not show the same propensity for violence as do males.

Football and rap? Also, largely boys' ambitions.

Our perception is that this is an increasing problem, when the data shows that homicide rates for London were higher every year of the 90s and 00s than this year, 2017 (even though last year includes the terrorist attacks), 2016 before etc.

Were crimes under-reported before? Are the victims different now - maybe they are younger, and that seems more alarming. It feels like a growing problem to me too, but then I looked at the stats and was quite surprised to see how how murder rates have been through me lifetime as a resident.

'my lifetime' not 'me'
(gah, give us an edit function!)