If you have a tidy person and an untidy one – is it always the tidy one that wins?

[Whatdoesitmatteranyway]

Not a TAAT but inspired by one.

I am naturally untidy. Some would say I’m a slob. Left to my own devices I would clean and tidy eventually but my trigger point for it is quite low. I’d clean long before environmental health was called but would probably take me tripping over things or running out of dishes. However I quite like a tidy house, just not enough to prioritise it over knitting.

DH is obsessively tidy. My mother accuses him of having a mental illness (she;s not far wrong but I wouldn’t insult anyone with OCD by saying he has it as he doesn’t). Last time we stayed at her, she had to hide the Dettol from him!

Our house looks like a show home. Thanks mainly (entirely?) to DH.

The problem is, he will tidy/clean something long before it even occurs to me there might be a problem. That means he constantly feels as though he’s tidying up after me. Which occasionally boils over into resentment and threats of going on strike or rants about me taking the piss and expecting him to go around picking up after me. He just can’t ignore something not in its place.

What he cannot seem to get is I’m not deliberately thinking he can pick things up for me, or clean up after me, or think “oh wqell DH can do that I can’t be bothered”

So he “wins” every time.

Just wondering if the tidy person always wins or ends up resentful.

Well after your update, NO YANBU.
The only one on that list that would bother me (and I like a tidy house) is
6. I don't always close cupboard doors or ward robe doors after me which drives him nuts as it looks untidy
It does look untidy and it literally, yes literally takes 1 extra second to shut a cupboard door.

The rest I totally don't do!

The tea bags would annoy me as well. Squeeze and put into the food compost bin right next to the kettle. Job done!!!

This puzzles me a bit...
7. Last time my BF stayed, he went nuts to me later as she didn't wipe the sink out of toothpaste after brushing her teeth - but then if I didn't brush my teeth in the shower I might do the same
Do you have 2 showers a day?

Could you sit down with him and make a list of the things that bother him, and ask him to choose some (half? 2-3 and work up? Whatever works best) that are most important to him, and you'll try really hard to pay attention to those, and in return, he won't bug you about the rest. For example, you try to remember to get a fresh towel out, as that's an immediate problem, and in return he agrees that the kitchen can be wiped once your finished cooking, as long as you cook and you clean up after, it's your decision what order to do that in.

It doesn't always have to be the tidy person that wins, because it's not about winning. Compromise is the important thing. My wife always does the washing up, so she gets to decide how the plates are scraped/rinsed/stacked, as it makes her life easier. When I did my own washing up I didn't rinse plates when I took them to the kitchen, I just soaked them for a few minutes while I wiped the side down if anything was dried on. But she does the job, so she chooses.

In return, I do the laundry. She never used to turn her socks in the right way, always inside out, so then the dog fur doesn't get off the bottom properly, and I had to spend ages turning socks in the right way before putting a load on. I do the laundry, so my choice, so now socks are turned in the right way before they go in the wash basket.

Sometimes, it only takes both of you being willing to change a little to find a way that everyone is happy with.

Yes. I’m the messy one, DH is the tidy one. We now pay for a cleaner once a week, I make an effort to pick stuff up and he makes an effort not to get annoyed with me if I forget. We have formed an uneasy truce...

I am your DP, you're my flatmate. I win most of the time because I won't live in a midden, which is what all your little leavings add up to. Her crimes include stuff "stored" in the hall, recycling filled to overflow, not moving crumbs or clearing the plug hole and sink, not wiping down sides or bathrooms or cleaning muck on the hob or table (these things do save time on a big clean). It's actually quite tiring when someone doesn't see it. It's a matter of standards & priorities though, I suppose. It's also inconsiderate in shared space because there might not be room for someone to work around stuff you leave out so they'll have to move it anyway. Your teabag pile is an idle and thoughtless thing to do and a prime example. You might be waited on the rest of the time in hotels but your DP isn't a servant. Tbh though based on how you describe yourself I dare say you leave a state for hotel staff, too.

Really DSHathaway?
See I don't get that after reading OP's updates.

I’m more like your Dh. I find the mess, clutter, untidiness really unsettling, ‘visual noise’ and I’d prefer to spend an hour cleaning it than looking at it. Dh just simply doesn’t see it. I always joke and say he lives in a clean house, I live in a dirty one- and it’s the same house!!

Also, while he does sometimes see the mess, he definitely doesn’t see- smears on Windows, cobwebs, crumbs in the cutlery drawer, beds needing changed, rugs that are skew, dust on picture frames etc etc (ie ongoing cleaning jobs outside of the obvious daily things) and probably wouldn’t believe me if I told him how often this sort of thing needs doing.

I don’t have an ocd by any means, but I do have obsessive tendencies and cleaning is just a part of that, so I sort of accept that it’s me who will end up doing the things that only I notice. It would be nice however if he just once thought to change the sheets or clean the shower that he uses every day.

My personal threshold for tidy is Would I feel embarrassed if a visitor popped in unexpectedly? I wouldn't cringe if someone saw a bit of dust on the TV unit or a couple of plates waiting to be washed up. I don't think not wanting clothes or towels on the floor, skids in the loo, sink covered with toothpaste blobs etc is an unreasonably high standard of tidiness.

My DH is naturally untidy. It was only when we decluttered our old house in order to sell it that he realised just how nice it is to live in a tidy home. He's been much less messy in our new house because he finally appreciates how soothing it is not being surrounded by crap.

Are our DP's the same person? This is exactly the dynamic at my house - even re. the knitting!

He normally wins but I try really hard to put up the resistance. There's a happy medium in between us both where its tidy enough but we don't spend our whole lives doing menial chores just so things look nice (to him, I don't see it). I'm determined to get us to that place.

From my experience they normally do win because we aren't fussed whereas they care TOO MUCH to let it go.

I’m the tidy one, DH isn’t. Luckily, neither of us is dirty.

Despite having lived together for many years, I feel he still understand that I live in this house too. If he wants to dump his clothes on the floor on his side of the bed, ornleave his toolbox a mess or the DIY cupboard a tip - fine, doesn’t bother me.

If he wants to leave closet doors open - yes it bothers me because I have to shut them to walk past. The number of times I’ve dinged my hip walking into a half shut kitchen drawer, I can’t tell you.

He just doesn’t get that he’s not at liberty to be untidy in shared spaces. It’s disrespectful to everyone else. Nobody wants to have to pick up someone else’s sweater or socks to sit on the sofa, move their used mugs and empty wrappers from the coffee table before using it themselves. It’s just plain rude.

I'm so puzzled by this idea tidy people have that their partners 'expect them' to clear up after them

In a houseshare in my early 20s I thought my housemates left things because they were thinking 'Lisa will do it' (and I am not a particularly houseproud person - but I did basically everything as no one else did). Then I went on a two week holiday and got back to find that I was wrong - if I wasn't there they really would just live in absolute, filthy squalor.

Nobody wants to have to pick up someone else’s sweater or socks to sit on the sofa, move their used mugs and empty wrappers from the coffee table before using it themselves. It’s just plain rude.

I'm not defending him - and I have trained myself out of doing this - but I suspect the issue is, in part, that if you left socks on the sofa or dirty mugs on the coffee table he wouldn't move them, he'd just sit on them/put his stuff next to them. So while you see it as him forcing you to pick that stuff up, he doesn't see it that way.

@hellsbellsmelons yes. IMO untidy people are untidy everywhere they go. Whilst hotel don't necessarily have to tidy if you're in residence, I don't think it shows much respect for their work environment. That might be because I've cleared up a lot of shop fitting rooms though. I'm pathologically neat.

Finding this so interesting as 1) I'm exactly the same as you OP, and 2) generally the threads I see are the other way around - I.e. women getting really annoyed that men don't pull their weight.

I think it's a tough one, because on the one hand you and your partner have opposite styles of living that would make you happy.

You're not being untidy just to piss him off, you simply don't notice it and would probably rather a relaxed approach where (for instance) you can sit and enjoy your dinner, and chill for a bit, without thinking about plates. It's not that you won't tidy, you just don't always need to do it straight away.

By that logic it's two different ways of life and you should compromise and meet in the middle. E.g. plates always done before bed, but not necessarily right after dinner.

On the other hand from your OH's perspective, it is frustrating when you consistently tell a partner something is important to you and they keep not doing it, so you have to.

That would wind anyone up regardless of what was being discussed. So that's hard.

But I do think you're right in that "tidy people always win", and I think that's because his need for things to be tidy is generally seen as good, whereas your untidiness is generally seen as lazy / bad.

Perhaps the trick is to reframe it so you're both talking about your needs.

To be happy - he needs everything to be clean and tidy. But equally for you to be happy, sometimes you need to just chill out for a bit and put the tidying off. They're competing needs and equally valid. Therefore a compromise (as above) is required. And maybe take it from there. Perhaps there are other non-tidying chores you enjoy / care more about that you can take on to redress the balance a bit.

I'm v. lucky (in this at least) in that while my OH is a neat freak and I'm a bit of a slob he acknowledges that I really do try, and seems to actually enjoy the tidying, so we divide the labour so it works for us both.

Frankly I prefer the house a little bit "lived in" but I don't object to him cleaning like a maniac (and the fact I can't find anything once he's tidied) and he doesn't object to me leaving my shoes everywhere.

Neat freaks are hell to live with. I was a “tidy person” for most of my life until I met my husband (as in, i don’t like to live in a mess, clear up after myself, keep my home clean and am particularly careful about bacteria (especially in the kitchen). And then boom, suddenly I’m a “messy person” and it drives him absolutely insane.

Well guess what? It drives me absolutely insane too. And I know it comes from his mother who actually describes herself as being pathologically neat and says it is a fault. What freaks me out is the neatness doesn’t seem to extend to true cleanliness....so lots of wiping of tables and surfaces, but the cloth is rarely what I would consider to be clean, and often serves to wipe up invisible droplets of water on the floor, as well as the table! These are the people that can never truly enjoy eg crafting or baking with their children, so triggered are they by the potential for mess that will be beyond their control. Not only that, but this kind of obsessive neat freakery kills creativity and joy in the home. When my husband is away, my son and I can relax, but the odd thing is, the house is not in total chaos.

Saying all this; this is who he is. It genuinely upsets him to see mess of any description. I have my own obsessions, so I feel sorry for him. I make a point of clearing up as I go along while cooking; I use a bowl for all vegetable scraps and I head out to the compost immediately I have got the food on. If there are utensils or suchlike to be washed up, again I’ll do it once the food is cooking. I always put away hats, shoes, sunglasses in the same place, I put books back away as soon as I’ve finished reading them (and if I haven’t, I’ll still put them back to be got out again later). Clothes either go in the dirty laundry or on a specific hanger if they are to be worn again. In short, I meet him halfway because I care about him and how he feels, not because I think he is “normal” or easy to live with. He really, really isn’t. However, In return, he only uses specific cloths for specific things, washes hands when preparing meat and no longer touches every tea towel in the house when doing so, turns off the taps when using water (instead of leaving them on full for the duration of the washing up), and changes out of outdoor clothes and showers or at least washes feet before going on the bed. Turns out neat freaks aren’t always germ freaks (and vice versa!). I also ask him to use positive speech when showing our son how to be tidy, because the toxic parenting that led to his tidymania was very very evident in the way he used to address him. Those of you that are so deeply triggered by “light mess” (think a mug on the side of the sink for an hour or so, a book or two on the table); have a think about how you learned that ultra-tidy mindset. Why are you so viscerally upset by it? Why make it so emotional? People that keep a happy medium of tidiness are generally okay to be a bit tidier when they are not constantly being blamed and shamed about it. Tidy is not as virtuous as you think it is; try kind.

Winning?

I'm sure he thinks you're winning.

You leave the place as you like it, and he does all the donkey work to clean it up. 

And OMG tea bags. Why not just put them straight in the bin? Why leave them festering on the sink in the first place? I don't get this. The tea is squeezed out, the bin has a liner in it. I put tea bags straight into the bin. Involves a lot less leg-work, and the sky hasn't fallen on our heads.

Teabags are hot. I want to drink a tea. Ergo I will wait till I go back to the sink to put it in the bin. Maybe half an hour later. Or if I’m at home I reckon I might have three cups of tea, so Ill just do it later. No one dies in the process. If someone else wants to use the sink to do something I would get up and put them in the bin.
Why do neat freaks think this is an abomination.
Tidy people always win, as someone said upthread it’s seen as good and not being that bothered about a teabag in the sink is seen as slovenly

Funny thing is, whenever I go to someone’s house that isn’t insanely clean, I always think this seems like a happy chilled out house, with normal people living in it. (I am not talking about filth)

@TheDowagerCuntess
Do you actually know how long it takes a teabag to start to fester. Because it’s quite a long time.

Thankfully DH and I are similarly (un)tidy. But I find it hard having others round, because especially as a woman, I know I'm being judged. It feels as though that's intensified now many of those who come round have children (as do I). I'm just hoping I can go back to my natural slobbish ways in a few years time when DD becomes a teenager - her friends are much less likely to care!

It shouldn't be about winning, OP

Your goal is to live harmoniously. You've each got different standards. Expecting one to adopt the other's is doomed to failure. You need to be finding ways to accommodate each other's standards or you'll both just continue being pissed off.

You don't realise it because you're untidy but when the house is a mess by my standards I get really irritated and upset and can't concentrate and feel frustrated...it's actually really unfair of you to refuse to change your habit of 'not seeing' mess.

Learn some definite rules- beds must be made when you wake up, dishes should never be left out or around, wash them up or dishwasher. Laundry should be put away within 2 days. Every time you cook the sides need wiping down and he floor sleeping.

It's not hard and you could be making DP miserable. If he's really excessively clean then you need to have a conversation about how he needs to work on relaxing, but you should still try and do more.

If you live with a messier person you always lose. If you ask for help (especially when they can't see it) you're nagging. If you split the tasks out you're controlling. If you do it all yourself, you're doing more than what you view as your fair share so become resentful. At best, you compromise by lowering your standards and live in a dirtier house.

@TheWiseWomansFear
Maybe you don’t realise that constantly being on edge about tidying makes you feel uptight and anxious and unable to relax.
The point is compromise
The op in no way seems like a total slovenly person.
Leaving doors open is annoying and a habit you should try and break.
But the rest is a bit mad imo

@Holdingonbarely that's why I said if he is excessive they need to have a discussion and then both work on meeting in the middle.

This is what I don’t get. Why is he going round and tidying up after u. What is he doing moaning that u leave stuff out.

It is your house as well. In my house if my husband wants to leave his wallet on the table or his shoes by the front door instead of the cupboard why shouldn’t he. It is his house as well and if he wants them there why is that a problem.

If I was you I would either get a cleaner if u can afford it or have a day where u both clean up.

I wouldn’t dream of tidying up round my husband. He is a grown man. If he leave his pants by the sink then that’s up to him. I’m not picking up after him. He’s old enough to decide these things himself.

Am like your dh and its caused quite a few tears and a lot of resentment to the point he pays for a cleaner as I can't handle his mess.

Gets bread and puts it on the table surface with out a plate... I could go down easily for murder