AIBU to think this might be a child protection issue here?

[originallyfromLA]

NC for this as very outing.

I became friends with a lady (let's call her Sally) through another friend. I've been renting her car from her for the last couple of years, so I don't know her intimately but we have regular contact a couple of times a month via text.She is divorced, her exH lives quite a way away I think, but does have the children on a regular basis.

I knew Sally was a heavy drinker before I met her. Her reputation comes before her. We've met up twice for drinks. On each occasion she has ended up so drunk that she is virtually comatose and is unable to look after herself in any capacity, and she gets herself into this state within about 2 hours so the evenings were cut very short, which wasn't what we wanted so it was bizarre she let it happen. The first time we were out she 'lost' £100 from her purse and it wasn't put towards our evening because I paid the tab at the end (which was no problem). The second time she lost her iPhone and apparently she regularly loses them - about 4 per year - because she gets so drunk.

Things she has done whilst drunk:

Falling asleep in a fairly empty pub, leaning against the wall with her legs up on another chair an splayed apart so much that nothing was left to the imagination....all the more embarrassing because everyone in there was looking at her and laughing. When I tried to wake her and sit her properly, she would stay like that for about 20 seconds, before going back exactly as she was before. Eventually I gave up and arranged for a mutual friend to come and pick her up, thinking that no taxi would take her in that state.

Fallen asleep in pubs and snoring loudly.

Got lost in a smallish pub and not being able to find our table again, so drunkenly trying to join other peoples' tables.

Plus many, many more along the same lines.

Now here is where it starts straying into the unacceptable. She has two children aged 16 and 14. The eldest is a nightmare, smoking dope freely around the house on a daily basis. Also sells drugs and has repeatedly stolen expensive items from the house (MacBook Air, iPads, jewellery, etc.) to fund this drug habit. It always happens when Sally is drunk/hungover in bed.

The younger child is left to fend for herself a lot of the time, alone in the house. Feeding herself, washing her own uniform, cleaning the house all by herself. Now, none of this is wrong, but my point is that Sally isn't doing these things BECAUSE she's drunk. She does work but in a pub (therefore can drink) and a cocktail bar (ditto). She lost her proper job under a very black cloud and associated with alcohol.She is very open with her children about her drinking and merrily calls them up to tell them she's "totally trollied".

This is where I really start to worry. Sally now tells me that her DD is starting to ask for wine on a regular basis. She is given a small sherry glass and then swaps it for a much bigger glass when Sally isn't looking. She also wanders around the house with a bottle of wine in her hand. Being left to her devices only strengthens this habit in my opinion. There's no structure/meals/hep with homework - nothing like that.

The other thing that happens regularly is that she'll come home so drunk she can;t put herself to bed and the children have to do it. The last time she did that, she managed to open the front door but then fell straight through it, ending up face down on the floor, completely unable to wake up. These are things that she thinks are perfectly normal. The worrying thing is that she is shortly to get her driving licence back and, as things stand, she will never be sober while she's driving. She drinks every day, around 2/3/4 bottles of wine, or the equivalent. Her father was an alcoholic and she describes herself as a 'functioning alcoholic', but has no desire to change, thinks it's reasonably normal.

Sorry that's so long! I was trying not to drip feed. My basic question is: from the perspective of strangers, does this look like a child protection issue? Or just a home life that is chaotic?

We don’t need permission to make a safeguarding referral. But parents should be told it is happening and why. Unless of course telling them puts the child in immediate danger.

I disagree with previous posters who say ss are too inundated to help. I’ve recently been through a very similar situation and now have custody of younger siblings (16 &14) through my parents drinking and the police and social services recommended that they were removed but asked family first and spoke about getting support for the kids instead if no one stepped in which could be the case here. Until the phone call off the police I had no idea things had gotten so bad so I don’t think calling ss or even have a chat with a pcso if you have one local and see if they can pop round one evening and assess the state that the mum is in and what’s going on with the kids

Some of these comments telling OP not to report are are really troubling. I work in Education in a Safeguarding role and I can confirm the concerns outlined in the OP is more than good enough reason for a referral to Children's Services.

The way this woman behaves when she's out drinking aren't really the issue, although I can see why they would worry you OP. You need to focus on the impact on the children, which sounds significant in itself.

Children's services can and do intervene where children are adversely impacted by parental alcohol misuse and a 14 year old and 16 year old are still very much children and within the remit of Children's Services. A 14 year old or 16 year old having to put their Mum to bed because she's passed out drunk is unacceptable. That child is a Young Carer, they're not cooking, cleaning and washing their own uniform in the context of 'helping out' around the house in an age appropriate way- they're doing these things because their parent is incapacitated due to their alcohol addiction and can't meet their needs. It is also troubling that the 14 year old is also now starting to use alcohol and that this is being facilitated by a parent who has no concept of moderation themselves. The allegations around the 16 year old using and selling drugs is also very concerning. It places both children at risk of harm and again suggests that their Mother does not have the capacity to step in and protect them. These issues will no doubt be impacting their attendance/engagement at school and their emotional well-being.

Please call children's services. This family need professional support.

The only thing OhTheRoses ever does is bang on and on (and on) about disrespectful public sector workers who don't call her Mrs OhTheRoses so I would view her "advice" through that lens OP (and completely disregard it)

Fucking loon

I wasn’t telling the op not to report, just being realistic about the help the family will actually get atm.

Don’t bother with NSPCC, just call SS. Very likely they’re involved anyway if the whole town knows as it seems.

Lots and lots of children grow up with alcoholics. Sadly my Bf did. sS were involved her whole life but only made it marginally better. Don’t expect a magic solution, it’s likely to be that SS offer suport for the children ie counselling and step in to take control of finances, ensuring there is always food etc. All good help but you’re unlikley to see any change as a bystander.

I don’t know why you’ve started with so much detail of her nights out getting battered- you should’ve just said she drinks 2/3/4 bottles of wine a day and it would’ve been clear she’s a true addict not just a party girl.

Isn't it funny how people who don't think they should've been assessed by children's services have the loudest negative opinions of them.

I work with children’s services in a therapeutic support role. In my experience children aren’t normally removed in these circumstances unless there is a family member willing to take the children. They should be offered support from young carers though.

can't believe some posters would say " why don't you help your friend and her children?". Do you have any idea what it is like to try to help a raging alcoholic and two problematic teenagers??? What do you want OP to do? Become responsible of everyone

SS are overstretched, as all public services are, that's true. Which means that sometimes things aren't dealt with as quickly or robustly as they should be. But that doesn't mean they can't have an impact. I can think of half a dozen families off the top of my head where parental alcoholism/substance misuse has been an issue and SS involvement has led to meaningful change, either at Child Protection, Child in Need or CAF level. That doesn't mean all the families problems have magically gone away. I'm talking about things like parents recieving much needed support for their own MH issues which may have been ongoing for years, children engaging in education who weren't previously, home conditions improving so that the children aren't living in squalor or chaos, improved family relationships..there is a lot that can be achieved but it takes time. It also takes people like OP, who have become aware that things aren't right, to trust their instincts and share information.

A lot of people have this misconception that SS are either entirely incompetent or just remove children. There are brilliant social workers who provide specialist support. These children should be on the child protection register with regular conferences and multi agency support, which social services can arrange and facilitate

Whilst I am obviously strongly advising OP to make a quick phone call I think it’s incredibly likely SS are already involved with the family so I don’t think she’s going to be doing anything ground breaking. I think MN has a tendency to get over excited about someone quickly reported a concern like is the fast track to sainthood, and it creates a hand wringing delay whilst the OP builds it up in their own heads.

I think it’s incredibly likely SS are already involved with the family so I don’t think she’s going to be doing anything ground breaking

Maybe, maybe not. I come across a lot of families through work who are obviously in crisis and in some cases there has been abuse/neglect occurring for years but they aren't actually on SS radar because everyone thinks the problems are so obvious that someone else must have reported it already.

If they are already aware of the family then OP's information might provide useful evidence for maintaining SS involvement or stepping it up a level.

Please, please call Nspcc and/or Socìal Services now. These are vulnerable children not being cared for and being allowed to do as they please with drinking and drug taking. God knows what could happen if left much longer. You know what is going on so it is your duty of care to report this. To be honest I'm stunned that you are having to ask if this is a safeguarding issue

Yes, I completely agree.

We shouldn't have. The nurse should have asked permission or informed it would be done before it was done. If an HCP wants to refer me to SS at the very least address me with the same courtesy with which the consultant is addressed. If a SW wants to be called Mr A do not assume my first name may be used. The practice is reductive and subordinates the client putting them in an assumed weaker position.

How professional to refer to somebody as a fucking loon. Do not such people have the intellect to construct an argument.

CAMHS closed dd's case twice. She had a neuro developmental disability. If any support had been offered hcp's would have rather more of my respect. It wasn't but a consultant psychiatrist was put in place therefore the state lost the upper hand imo. The state did fuck all.

Whist I agree that SS may already be involved, there is also a chance that they are not.

Also, SS may know some pieces of the jigsaw but OP may be able to provide others that could be helpful.

The reason that people who work with children and vulnerable adults are given compulsory safeguarding training is so that this sort of stuff doesn't fall under the radar.

It's not a case of being handwringy or over excited - it's just that people are not going to get help and support if no one informs the correct agencies that help and support is required.

Romanyroots.....truly gobsmacked by your post "the kids aren't in any danger" Are you being serious???

You can call dvla as well, she may then need medical to get liscence back. She should go to aa, alateen may help the dc

This was me at 14. And nearly followed in her footsteps was drinking all the time getting into trouble but we got a happy ending. Mabye ask her to try get help mabye if the social did get involved it might give her kick up the backside to take the step to recovery

OhTheRoses Nobody needs to ask your permission to make a referral to SS. Yes the HCP should have informed you they were doing that.

OP I would report, what happens will depend on resources in your area but it does warrant an assessment.
In relation to roses, as pp have said you should have been informed an referral was being made by a professional but permission isn't needed. If you are finding you are having lots of clashes with professionals then looking carefully at your interactions may help.
I have to say that I remember the handful of people who insisted on being called by their surnames throughout, it seemed to be linked to trying to create odd power struggles that really weren't helpful in getting the job done. This work is about getting the best outcomes for dc and usually everyone can sign up to that, even if through gritted teeth at times.

emms55

What danger are they in, on of them is considered an adult, the younger one is in no danger either.
I'm not saying don't report, I just wouldn't be surprised if ss didn't do anything.
Just speaking from experience, so no need to be so smacked in the gob.

Sorry for the late reply - long day at work.

To answer a couple of questions - I know the in depth info because our mutual friend is very close to her and she's shared concerns with me.

I started the post by outlining the general situation to be completely clear about exactly how drunk she gets, rather than "she gets a bit pissed and her kids have to put her to bed." They've also had to undress her in the past, I believe.

I also wasn't sure whether this was a safeguarding issue because:

a) Though she drinks every day, the amount is changeable and it's not an everyday occurrence that she gets completely wasted, more like a pattern of behaviour.
b) The children are old enough not to be neglected from a practical standpoint. Obviously emotional neglect is going on there, but they aren't starving/unwashed/sleeping on bare mattresses on the floor.
c) The father is involved, so clearly have the DC have somewhere else to go/someone to talk to about all this.

I know it's such a cliche, but unless you know her you really wouldn't think she would be like this. She's attractive, intelligent, well spoken and holds down two jobs. The DC attend a private school - as do mine, so I know that it's often the case that safeguarding concerns aren't such a strong point because the general incidences are lower.

Thanks for all the input, I'm going to ring the NSPCC tomorrow and see what they advise and I'm prepared to report to children's services if that seems the best option.

Alcoholism has different forms. It sounds like she is a binge drinker rather than a top up drinker. It's a misconception that alcoholics drink every day. Many do, but some don't. If she's getting wasted to the point where her children are having to put her to bed, it has happened more than once and she doesn't regard it as an issue, then she has a significant problem.

If she's functioning well enough present a façade to the world that effective, there's a good chance that there may not have been previous intervention.

I can't imagine that a private school wouldn't have a safeguarding lead. It's pretty standard in all organisations where children or vulnerable adults are cared for. Abuse exists whether people are wealthy or not.

Neglect (of whatever type) and emotional abuse (even if unintentional) are both considered categories of abuse and are therefore both safeguarding issues.

The children may have disclosed to significant adults in their life or they may not have. There is always the chance that they feel a displaced sense of loyalty to their mother and feel they should be keeping it secret. Also, what do you know of their father?

It's good that you're going to talk to NSPCC, but I do think that informing school or social services will be the way to ensure that this family gets the support they need.