To start a thread to nurture understanding of the different school systems in the UK

[TamiTayorismyparentingguru]

There are SO MANY posts on MN (usually from English posters) about why our kids are in school/not in school, why we use different names for things, not understanding the ages of kids etc so I thought I would start a thread for a bit of mutual education as it were. If we all understood that the UK is not one homogenous whole perhaps we would all get along a little better!

Ok - here goes:

SCOTLAND
Pre-school

• 2 years known as Ante-Pre and Pre-School.
• Child is entitled to begin from the term after their 3rd birthday. (This means some children will get 2 full years, some will not depending on when their birthday falls.)

Primary School

• 7 years beginning with Primary 1 (most often referred to as P1) up to Primary 7 (P7)
• Child begins at either age 4 or 5 depending on when their birthday falls. Child has to be 4 by end of Feb to begin the following August. The youngest child will therefore be 4.5 by the time they start school.
• If child has a birthday in Jan or Feb the parents have free choice to send child to school at 4, or to defer entry until the following year when they are 5. If they defer they are entitled to another year of fully funded pre-school. This is entirely the parent’s choice and while schools will advise, it is ultimately up to the parents.
• Technically mid-Aug - Dec birthdays can also defer as the only legal requirement in Scotland is to start school before your 6th birthday but if this is done without the recommendation/agreement of the nursery school/primary school then another year of funded pre-school is not guaranteed. This is not common and usually only happens if there are additional needs and with the backing of an ed-psych report.
• Some council areas allow for early entry for those born Mar- mid Aug but this is again only done with an ed psych report and is not a right - no school is obligated to take a child at 4 if their birthday is Mar - mid Aug.
• There are catchment areas and provided you live in the catchment area before March of the normal entry year (p1) you are guaranteed a place at your catchment school. You can apply to another school via a placing request (also used for people who move into an area after the normal entry point) and this is often approved, but it is not guaranteed and of course there are schools which are always over-subscribed with placing requests where it is harder to get into.

Seconday School/High School

• as per another thread: commonly referred to as high school, also referred to as secondary school or Academy depending on where you live.
• 6 years, beginning with S1 and finishing with S6.
• In S4 pupils sit their first external exams as a cohort - these are called National 5s (Or Nat 5s). Pupils will usually study for 6/7/8 subjects depending on their school. There is another option of Nat 4s which follow a similar syllabus but which don’t have any exams at the end.
• If pupils are 16 at the end of S4 they can leave school.
• S5 is when pupils who choose to return to school study for their Highers. In most cases this will be 5 subjects. Higher exams are at the end of 5th year and once again pupils can leave at the end of that year. Scottish students can go to university with higher results meaning it is possible for Scottish students to start university at age 16/17.
• S6 is the year for Advanced Highers - usually 3/4 subjects.
• As with Primary school - you have a catchment school and are guaranteed a place at that school if you live there before March of your P7 year.

The school year

• The school year begins mid-Aug and usually finishes either at the end of June or beginning of July.
• We get 1/2 weeks off in October - this is earlier than half term in the rest of the UK.
• We also get 2 weeks holiday in December, 2 weeks in March/April (this isn’t always actually over the Easter period) and then 6/7 weeks in the summer.
• We get half term in Feb which could range from 2 days to a week depending on where you are.
• We do not get half term in May - usually just 1 day for May Day.

The system is completely different to the English system and also different to the system in place in NI - both in terms of academics and in terms of school structure/terms.

Now - as I’ve gone on far too long, perhaps someone else could do a post for England/Wales/NI.

Scotland school year starts approx 14th august you need to be 5 by 29th feb of that school year, so the youngest you can be starting school is 4 years 5 months and 2 weeks, ( ie this year the youngest was 4 on 28.2.18)
Technically the oldest would have been 5 on 1.3.18 though as deferral is automatically approved for Jan Feb births the oldest may have been 5 on 1.1.18 once deferred you then stay in this class all through school
My DD is a december birthday we chose not to defer so she is one of the youngest in her class while if we moved to England she would be one of the older ones she is in P5 if we were in England she would be Y4, she will be 17.5 when she finishes school even if she stays for S6 and advanced highers so she will not be 18 when she starts University etc

Hampshire, England

Follows England (obviously)

Fully comprehensive system for Secondary Schools.

Almost no schools have 6th forms attached. Instead, we have 6th form colleges, some of which are ginormous (2000 per year). Colleges are A levels (mainly), Vocational , or a good mix. Specialist colleges such as Sparsholt Agricultural College also exist.

Advantage is that everyone has to make a positive choice as to what to do next, no staying on at school as a default. Also can be a good half way house to university, and pretty much any subject combination possible.
Disadvantage is that when picking choices no one knows both the pupil and the prospective course so guidance for non-standard pupils is harder. Also adjusting to new surroundings when starting course. Pastoral care generally not as good as within a school setting imo.

Gierg I agree that the mix of skills and focus of the teachers and pedagogs sounds brilliant!

When we lived in the US my DC went to a smallish Christian private school which was a real family. I can honestly say that the pastoral care was the best I have ever seen. My children were genuinely loved. My youngest two in particular found it quite hard to come back to Scotland to the very professional divide between teacher and pupil (even in p1) - I like our primary school but it’s not anywhere near as nurturing as our school in the US was. It’s a cultural difference here - I just think there is so much focus on the academic side of things, that the nurturing side of things can be missed a bit.

There's a different curriculum in Wales. We dint have ousted, we have estyn. We don't have sats. Our children don't learn those daft grammar rules at primary thqt keep making the news every time it's sats again.

Seniorcitizen said that All schools in Scotland are disability act compliant

That may be true for all new schools in Scotland in the sense of being built for disabled access - but not all existing schools are suitable for people with disabilities.

Ds' old secondary has no lifts and no way to put them in (its main block is an old building). It's not for want of trying - it's already been through a PFI refurbishment and the headteacher would have dearly loved to let her mother, who was in a wheelchair, visit her in her workplace - but it was impossible. Only small areas of the school are wheel chair accessible - so therefore not suitable for secondary education.

His old primary school often had to take kids who had physical disabilities because it was all on one level - as the neighboroughing primary is an old Victorian building, over 3 levels with stairs all over the place and no lifts (both entrances were reached by at least 6 steps and even access to the playground is via steps). His old Primary (built in 1980 ) has now been knocked down and a fancy new school built over 3 levels - but with a lift The neighboroughing primary is still Victorian and still unsuitable for someone with a physical disability

Tami - when I was making my placing request for ds' secondary school, they said the priorities were (iirc), medical needs and cared for children were the top two priorities and thereafter there was a descending order of priorities from catchment to siblings to out of catchment (as I'm sure you know ). So someone who was in catchment but hasn't got into the school would be 2nd top priority behind medical needs/cared for kids (top priority).

English County with 7 Grammar schools

All the grammars have 6th form (Yrs 12 and 13) many comps have 6th form also.

In Yr5 you can register your child for the 'grammar school test' if you want. The test is taken on a Saturday morning in September. You can do the test at any of the grammar (depending if they are single sex/mixed obvs)

You choose which of those 7 schools can see your Childs results. Each school will let you know whether you reached their minimum score and your ranking based on how many others have chosen to have their scored shared with that school. For example one school would reply "you have not reached the minimum score required" another "you have qualified at 323rd" or "you have qualified at 595th".

Based on their responses you can put the schools that have told you that you've qualified on your Common Application form.

Qualification does not guarantee your child a place in a grammar school.

From memory I think you can put up to 5 schools down in your preferential order.

If your child does not take the test/qualifies for grammar but decides they would rather go to a comp/ doesnt qualify for any, you do not put any grammar schools on your application; just the local non selective schools in your preferential order.

I'll add that in Wales, we have the Foundation Phase, not the Foundation Stage as this seems to be terribly confusing to English people.

It runs from age 3-7 and is the whole of Key Stage 1. It is completely play-based, right up until the start of Year 3.

Religious Schools in Scotland
errr... all schools on Scotland have a religious affiliation don't they? There are no secular schools in Scotland .We have denominational and (the misnomer) "non-demiminational" .

You're right - technically non-denominational schools are supposed to still have a daily ish assembly that is "broadly Christian in nature". But they're not religious in the sense of having any religious involvement, unlike the Catholic schools where the priest has a right to be on the parent council (and I'm not sure what other involvement).

As far as I am aware, everyone in Scotland is technically in two catchments: the non-denominational one and the denominational (Catholic) school. The Catholic schools can require baptismal certificates/confirmation from the priest if there is excess demand - but my local catholic primary school has a significant majority of pupils who are Sikh, Hindu or Muslim and the Catholic secondary also has significant numbers of Sikh, Muslim and Hindu pupils.

I think there used to be a requirement for certain subjects (as well as the PGCE of course to be Catholic in order to teach at a Catholic school (and get the priest to sign off that you attended church) but not sure if that is still the case. There also used to be a separate Catholic teacher training college in Glasgow - but it's now part of Glasgow Uni, so not sure if/how much the Catholic bit still operates.

Just to add, not many counties in England still have grammar schools.

you forgot to add that home education is also a legal option in the uk and schools/any educational facilities(preschool/nursery) are actually optional as you as the parent have the right to decide where education takes place

thousands dont even put them in any educational setting at all and teach them from birth to adulthood

ive known many that have sent 3/4 y old to nursery/reception when they havent wanted to or the child isnt even ready because they have been conditioned to think they must
compulsory school age is the term after their 5th birthday anyway

It’s not just Jan/Feb children than can be deferred in Scotland. Both mine have Nov birthdays and are deferred (my decision, no medical need). Deferral seems to be much easier here than in England.

You can defer untill the term they turn 5 but they will start ation the class they should be in . So a Four year old with an August birthday would go into year 1 with kids already there for a year instead of reception. Odle very few if any parents defer.

You can, and I think it's becoming more common, defer for a year and ask for your child to be effectively moved down a year, which send far more sensible to me and clearly out local school agrees, at least in some cases that I know of.

Can someone do the US? It always confuses me.

For Scotland - if there are only 6 years of Secondary School does that mean you start at 12/13 years old instead of 11/12?

US is grade school:
Kindergarden, age 5 or 6, attached usually to your elementary school
First grade, age 6, elementary school until 6th grade and then that is middle school or junior high school, 6th-8th grade, 3 years.
9th grade is high school till 12th grade, IIRC. Some private schools are kinder-8th grade and then you go to 9th grade high school and then you are usually 14. 9th grade is 14.

US

Most states handle school grades the same, but each state governs it's own school system and may even devolve authority to the county. But schools have to meet curriculum guidelines set by their state regardless. That being said, the general 'set up' is:

Kindergarten; starts at age 4 or 5, depending on birthday. Usually the 'cut off' is that a child must reach 5 by a certain date to start that year. Kindergarten classes are normally on the same school grounds as the grammar/elementary school but have separate facilities.

Grammar/elementary school; 1st through (usually) 8th grade, but can be handled differently depending on the school district, as follows: In smaller districts it's usually K-8th. In larger districts it's usually K-6th, then Jr High (aka intermediate or middle school) which is usually 7-8th grades, but occasionally 6-8th or 7-9th. Again, this all depends on the pupil population and the district structure.

High School 9th-12th grades (10-12th if Jr High has 9th)

There's no way to explain student testing in a general way because each state has different testing rules.

manicinsomniac children start secondary school at between 11.5 years old and 12.5 years old. They are between 17.5 and 18.5 years old after completing all 6 years of secondary school

Where we were in TX the school system was as follows:

PreK

• In our school we had Primary school which went roughly from age 2-5. There was a 2s class for 2 year olds, 3s class for 3 year olds and then you started official PreK. There were 2 official PreK years: PreK 3 & PreK 4.
• in TX the cut off date is Sept 1st so to start Kinder you have to be 5 by that date to begin. (And 4 by that date to start PreK 4 / 3 by that date to start PreK 3)
• Our school was private, but it was very common for people who used the state system to send their kids to “school” from about age 2, or at least 3. This was paid for by the parents (afaik no state funding until kinder). Typically a proper curriculum didn’t begin until PreK 3 or 4, but these “schools” were definitely more than just daycare and included a lot more structured learning than I have seen in nurseries here. Often these pre-schools were run by churches but not just for people from the church community.
• (a less formal option was MDO (Mother’s Day Out) which would be used by people maybe 2/3 mornings a week rather than full time or every day.)
• PreK has a definite curriculum - WAY more structured than nursery in Scotland and NI at least.

Elementary

• Grades K - 5th (Reception - yr5 / P1 - P6)
• Our school ran up to 8th Grade so was split between lower and middle school, but most state schools where we were stopped at 5th and then kids switched to a separate middle school/junior high.
• In our school Kinder was very much a part of lower school and this seemed to be the case for a lot of our friends in public schools too. It was also most definitely learning based and was very much like P1 in Scotland. Yes there was learning through play, but also a lot of structured learning.
• (Our school did not do naps in Kinder (although they did in PreK) but I know some schools that still had the kids nap in Kinder.)

Middle School/Junior High

• This was 6th - 8th Grade where we were.
• If it was a stand-alone school then it was classed as a Middle School, if it was connected to a High School then it was a Junior High. Mostly Middle schools in our area, but we do have some friends whose DC are in Junior High.
• In Middle School/Junior High pupils start to make choices about their subjects. They have some set subjects but also have electives.

High School

• 9th - 12th Grade. (Yr9 - Yr12 / S3 - S6)
• I know not a lot about High School because we left before our DC got to that stage.
• No external examinations - your High School diploma (which is what you need to graduate high school and go to University/college) is based on school work and exams done in house. I think it is based on credits gained through your junior and senior years (11th/12th Grade).
• Your GPA is your Grade Point Average and is (I guess) the closest equivalent to A-level grades in that it is what determines how well you’ve done. It is built up over (I think) 2 years, rather than being based on exams at the end of school.

Umm - LOADS I have missed there, and probably some errors too. BUT - as a PP said education is set at state/county level so there are a lot of different ways of doing things. (Private school is also a lot more common than it would be here - not just rich people who use them either.)

Oh, actually there IS external testing - I think! In TX it is STAAR tests and they are very controversial because of the pressure they put on the kids. I don’t know if they’re done every year though, or if it’s just in elementary schools. (I don’t know much about it because our school opted out and used ERBs instead which are tests set for private schools.)

@Rosamore in germany kids start kindergarden at 3. they learn basic maths and write their own name. They learn pen control, scissors etc. school generally starts at 6, but is a sit down, listen to the teacher environment. no learning by play, just a teacher in the front, and kids listening.
So, while they start later (which means kids from disadvantaged backgrounds fall waaaay behind their peers if there is no parental input), they start a much more formal school experience ar 6.
Different federal states also have various school systems. In bavaria, they get split in 3 ability streams at age10, so after 4 years of school. Theoretically it’s possible to work your way up later, practically extremely difficult. Hauptschule (leaves very few decent job options open), Realschule (vocational training) and Gymnasium (university and higher vocational training stream). All based on 3.5 years of school, so kids from disadvantaged backgrounds usually end up in Hauptschule, and the circle continues.
Some northern german federal states have comprehensive schools, but they are usually lower achieving , so results are not worth the same. So, somebody from Hamburg usually needs better marks to get into a University course than somebody from munich because of the huge difference in curriculum. Its a mess.

Yura - I went to a Grammar school in NI and one of the languages we learned was German. In doing so we were taught about life in Germany and we were taught that the German word for secondary school was Gymnasium! We were never taught that it was a type of school! I have learned something new!

I can add to education in Germany, also in Bayern!

In the last year of kindergarten (turning 6) the children have separate Vorschule classes. They do basic maths and writing and prepare them for school. The first two years of kindergarten is all play! My kids have Spielzeugtag - toy day - on Fridays and they all bring in their own toys to share and play with, it's really nice. Our kindergarten has 3 rooms, my DD's room has 25 kids and 3 carers.

Grundschule - primary school is 1st - 4th class. They start learning English in 3rd class, age 9 onwards.

School runs from 8am to up to 1pm. Some days my boys finish at 11:25 and are home by 12pm. That has taken some getting used to from the English system! They get the school bus to school, this is paid by the Stadt. There is also a walking bus for kids who live closer by.

They have 2-3 pieces of homework every day, usually a print out sheet or a page in a workbook.

1st Klasse has been a very slow start for my DS2, his homework so far has been writing pages of 1, 2, 3 etc over and over again! Then he has another book to practice letters in as well. Given he was writing small sentences in year R this has been a bit dull for him! We're explaining to him it's so everyone is at the same level.

2nd Klasse my DS1 is doing more writing and grammar then more complex maths

Children are sometimes held back a year if they don't progress well, and they are allowed to delay school start until age 7, especially if summer born.

Parents pay for all workbooks, (the different coloured plastic covers for the workbooks!!) pens, pencils, art supplies, various pads of paper, enormous school bags - everything! The list was given to us in the first week of term which ensured a nice rush in the shops! It's incredibly specific, you must not get it wrong! We also paid €40 per child to the school to pay for the photocopying for the year and 3 workbooks each. Kids also wear slippers in school! Which when you think about it makes total sense so you have no mucky shoes in the classroom.

In Bayern in the 4th Klasse my friends son is having weekly tests to determine his grade which will then decide on the type of school he can go to. All the tests count until January after which it's decision made and all the rest of the year is for fun. My DH grew up in Hesse where teachers and parents decided what type of school was better for the child.

Where you live has a set area for what school your child will go to. If you move to an area your child will be given a place in that school. If you move out of area you are expected to change schools unless you apply to be a 'guest' with a valid reason. There is also nothing like Ofsted so no real way of assessing whether the school is a 'good' school.

I don't know much about the secondary school system from age 10 but I do know children in Gymnasiums work to the Abitur (a level equivalent) and it is intense. Our 18 yr old babysitter speaks brilliant English. Certainly better than my Spanish after A Level!

Wow that was a bit epic!

Pffft that had paragraphs! Stupid app!

Just to illustrate the range in ages you can get legitimately in a single school year in Scotland, the brightest boy in ds' school year, who completed S6 in the summer and is now at Uni, won't be 18 until February next year . Another friend in the same year turned 18 last December. There is even one boy that he plays rugby with who is in the year below who turns 18 this month (although that's partly because he came from abroad - but he/his parents made use of the flexibility).

Ds, who turned 18 in September ( after Freshers Week ) was technically right in the middle of the age band, but in practice, because of deferrals, is towards the young end of the year.

If he'd been in England, he'd still be at school, in Y13/Upper 6th, as one of the oldest in his year.

My sympathies Schlobbob on the school supply shopping! It’s the same in TX and my goodness is it specific! We were presented with a list 24hrs after landing in the country (Fri) and needed all the stuff for the DC by the time they started school on the Monday. (It took a lot of time and work to figure out what a composition book was!) I was not the only one singing for joy when the school decided it was cheaper and with less waste the next year to bulk buy everything and charge the families a set amount per child!