To start a thread to nurture understanding of the different school systems in the UK

[TamiTayorismyparentingguru]

There are SO MANY posts on MN (usually from English posters) about why our kids are in school/not in school, why we use different names for things, not understanding the ages of kids etc so I thought I would start a thread for a bit of mutual education as it were. If we all understood that the UK is not one homogenous whole perhaps we would all get along a little better!

Ok - here goes:

SCOTLAND
Pre-school

• 2 years known as Ante-Pre and Pre-School.
• Child is entitled to begin from the term after their 3rd birthday. (This means some children will get 2 full years, some will not depending on when their birthday falls.)

Primary School

• 7 years beginning with Primary 1 (most often referred to as P1) up to Primary 7 (P7)
• Child begins at either age 4 or 5 depending on when their birthday falls. Child has to be 4 by end of Feb to begin the following August. The youngest child will therefore be 4.5 by the time they start school.
• If child has a birthday in Jan or Feb the parents have free choice to send child to school at 4, or to defer entry until the following year when they are 5. If they defer they are entitled to another year of fully funded pre-school. This is entirely the parent’s choice and while schools will advise, it is ultimately up to the parents.
• Technically mid-Aug - Dec birthdays can also defer as the only legal requirement in Scotland is to start school before your 6th birthday but if this is done without the recommendation/agreement of the nursery school/primary school then another year of funded pre-school is not guaranteed. This is not common and usually only happens if there are additional needs and with the backing of an ed-psych report.
• Some council areas allow for early entry for those born Mar- mid Aug but this is again only done with an ed psych report and is not a right - no school is obligated to take a child at 4 if their birthday is Mar - mid Aug.
• There are catchment areas and provided you live in the catchment area before March of the normal entry year (p1) you are guaranteed a place at your catchment school. You can apply to another school via a placing request (also used for people who move into an area after the normal entry point) and this is often approved, but it is not guaranteed and of course there are schools which are always over-subscribed with placing requests where it is harder to get into.

Seconday School/High School

• as per another thread: commonly referred to as high school, also referred to as secondary school or Academy depending on where you live.
• 6 years, beginning with S1 and finishing with S6.
• In S4 pupils sit their first external exams as a cohort - these are called National 5s (Or Nat 5s). Pupils will usually study for 6/7/8 subjects depending on their school. There is another option of Nat 4s which follow a similar syllabus but which don’t have any exams at the end.
• If pupils are 16 at the end of S4 they can leave school.
• S5 is when pupils who choose to return to school study for their Highers. In most cases this will be 5 subjects. Higher exams are at the end of 5th year and once again pupils can leave at the end of that year. Scottish students can go to university with higher results meaning it is possible for Scottish students to start university at age 16/17.
• S6 is the year for Advanced Highers - usually 3/4 subjects.
• As with Primary school - you have a catchment school and are guaranteed a place at that school if you live there before March of your P7 year.

The school year

• The school year begins mid-Aug and usually finishes either at the end of June or beginning of July.
• We get 1/2 weeks off in October - this is earlier than half term in the rest of the UK.
• We also get 2 weeks holiday in December, 2 weeks in March/April (this isn’t always actually over the Easter period) and then 6/7 weeks in the summer.
• We get half term in Feb which could range from 2 days to a week depending on where you are.
• We do not get half term in May - usually just 1 day for May Day.

The system is completely different to the English system and also different to the system in place in NI - both in terms of academics and in terms of school structure/terms.

Now - as I’ve gone on far too long, perhaps someone else could do a post for England/Wales/NI.

Also in England

A few (very few now) areas run a First, Middle and Upper school system. In this you do Reception - Y4 in a First school, Y5-Y8 at Middle School and Y9+ at Upper School.

In progress - I'm not sure I understand the question. School intake in Scotland runs 1 March to 28 feb. Any child who is 4 by 28th February next year has the right to start next August. Older children, born in March or April will be 5 and a half almost when they start. The youngest will be 4 and a half.

So parents of the youngest can say that actually they don't want to send their child next year when they're 4, they'd rather wait until they're 5 and a bit.

There is only one school intake per year - everyone starts in August.

Church schools- there are catholic schools and that's it apart from I think one Jewish primary in Glasgow.

There are still fixed catchments and many take non catholic children. Lots of people on my area opt to send their child to the catholic primary then into the regular senior school as it's next door and the catchment catholic secondary is miles away. Not sure on the admissions but I know that many ask for a baptism certificate.

There are no "church of Scotland" schools as there are c of e schools in England.

Ok - going to attempt a post about NI, but I know there will be gaps/errors because while I grew up there and still have family there, I haven’t actually had my DC through the system.

N.IRELAND
Pre-school

• 1 year known as Nursery. Sometimes this will be in a nursery attached to a school, sometimes in a stand-alone nursery school (state run), sometimes in a playgroup setting and some children will go to a daycare/private nursery setting.

Primary School

• 7 years beginning with Primary 1 (referred to as P1) up to Primary 7 (P7)
• Child begins at either age 4 or 5 depending on when their birthday falls. Child has to be 4 by end of June to begin that September. (I actually have a feeling the cut-off date is something weird like 2nd July rather than 30th June but I’m not certain about that.)
• As far as I know each school sets its own entrance criteria which will include things like distance from school, siblings in the school, parents who attended the school etc. Again - most children will go to their closest school geographically, but there are exceptions to that, and obviously there people who live roughly equidistance from a number of schools. There is definitely more choice than there is in Scotland, but how it all works with regards to catchment areas and whether those exist or not I’m not sure.

Secondary School

• 7 years, beginning with Yr8 and finishing with Yr14
• Secondary schools are split into selective post-primaries (Grammar schools) and non-selective post-primaries.
• There are also catholic schools and integrated schools as well as schools without any particular specification.
• Pupils can choose to sit the transfer test in P7 (exams take place between Nov-Dec). There are 2 different tests - AQE and GE. GE exam is generally used by Catholic schools, AQE by non-catholic schools, some schools will accept scores from either test.
• Pupils apply to whatever schools they want - (if they have sat the transfer test and been successful they will be applying to Grammar schools, if not then it’ll be non-selective schools.) Again - schools set their own entrance criteria which may or may not include transfer test scores, but will likely include distance from school, siblings at the school, parents who attended etc. There is much more choice re: schools in NI - single sex schools, bigger schools, smaller schools, no catchment areas etc
• As in England and Wales the external exams are GCSEs and Alevels, but NI has its own exam board and these are still marked with letter grades.
• Pupils can leave school at the end of Yr12 (the old 5th year) once they have done their GCSEs or can stay on for 6th year. (Yrs 13&14)
• Alevels are studied in Yrs 13&14.
• There are no standalone 6th form colleges like in England. If a pupil leaves school after GCSEs they might go to college, but these are not 6th form colleges. They used to be referred to as “tech” but I think they have different names now. You can resit GCSEs, do Alevels or do vocational courses or uni access courses. These are the same places that offer adult education.

The school year

• The school year begins very end of Aug or beginning of Sept and finishes at the end of June.
• There is a 1 week half term over Halloween week.
• There is also a 2 week holiday in December, 2 week holiday at Easter in March/April and then 8/9 weeks in the summer.
• There is a half term in Feb which could range from 2 days to a week depending on where you are. (I think each school sets their own holidays)
• No half term in May - usually just 1 day for May Day.

Trying to think what else would be different but mind has gone blank. Anyone else from NI want to fill in/correct errors?

wildbhoys Growing up in NI, we just had English classes for GCSE but we sat 2 different exams/did 2 lots of coursework and got 2 qualifications. When people talk about English and maths being base-level requirements for jobs - they mean English language, not English lit. I can’t remember what each course included though - it was too long ago!

For A-level, my school didn’t offer English language, just English Lit. I don’t actually know anyone who has sat an English language A-level so I have no idea what it involves.

When I was at school we definitely had to include Irish texts for English lit at Alevel but I don’t know if that still applies

All Scottish State schools are funded and managed via local authorities, except for Jordanhill in Glasgow, which due to an historical anachronism is directly managed by Holyrood.

There are no Academies etc. and even Denominational catholic schools are managed via local authorities.

There is only one exam body (the SQA) for Scottish Nat 5s, 6s and 7s. As I understand it there is no Advanced Higher in English Language, just Literature.

Just been researching and according to Cambridge Advanced Higher Maths goes slightly beyond Further Maths.

My DD2 will be 17 when she goes to University even after she has completed Advanced Highers. This is because she is an Autumn birthday and would be in the year below if she were in England.

I am a fan of CfE. My oldest started school before it, my middle experienced the transition to it and my youngest is only P3 so has known nothing else.

Area In England, 3 tier system:

First School - ages from 3-9 (Year 4)
Middle school - Years 5-8
High school - Years 9 to 13

Do Church schools exist in Scotland or Wales? If so, how does that fit with the usual application for a place system?

There are Church in Wales schools - couple near us but I don't know about applications to them whether it's direct to them or through council.

Kr1stina waiting lists are not allowed in Scotland either. If you are redirected to a non-catchment school and a place becomes available at catchment school, and you were redirected first then you would get the first refusal, but technically not a waiting list.

You are only redirected if you live within the LA - those who live outside and there are no places get rejected. Redirects get first refusal if place becomes available at catchment school - if more than one then the pupil who was first redirected get first refusal. If all at same time then ballot Don’t understand redirects being second on list as no list and redirects come first.

Medical needs redirects trump everything I think

There are definitely waiting lists where I am Kr1stina. I know because we have been trying to get DS into a couple of different schools for the last few years and he has been on waiting lists. In our city lists are held until end of October at which point they are cleared and you can then reapply for the following school year from Jan 1st. I don’t know how it works for Primary, but there are definitely lists for secondary. (Although as we have discovered there seem to be different rules for different schools.) I am (unfortunately) well acquainted with the system in our city (inc the appeals process) and the individuals involved in running the system.

No they don’t. In my experience of placement request appeal panels gained over 10 years is that placing request for medical reasons don’t happen anymore. It has to be that this priority comes into place only when only one school can address the child’s medical needs. This usually applied for schools with classrooms on 2 floors and no lifts. All schools in Scotland are disability act compliant so this priority doesn’t apply - kept on priority lists as included in 1980 Education Act.

Sorry - that previous comment should have been directed to SeniorCitizen - apologies

In Scotland you can submit placing requests at any time - the LA has to give a decision with 8 weeks. If rejected you can appeal to appeals panel, if they reject you can appeal to sherrif court. You can keep submiting placing requests after placing request if you so wish but most councils allow one appeal in any one year. But no waiting lists.

SeniorCitizen I am well aware that we can keep submitting placing requests one after the other and of the 2 month timescale for response, and what a deemed refusal is, and how the appeals process works - believe me - I wish we didn’t know the ins and outs of it all. I also know that some schools hold waiting lists. DS got to no.2 on the waiting list for a school in S1 by the time it was cleared in October and we then had to start all over again. He is currently on the waiting list for a different school but we know that list will be cleared at the end of this month so we know he won’t be getting a place this year.

Here you go SeniorCitizen

I don’t understand this as school places are allocated by the education authority not the school and when parents at appeal ask if they can be put on a waiting list the legal advice is that they are not allowed to keep waiting lists, and legally a placing request fails after 8 weeks.

I live in Denmark and work in a Danish Institution so know a bit about Denmark's system!

Pretty much all kids go to Vuggestue from around 1 year old.
The ones who don't go to vuggestue go to dagpleje (which is basically a childminder type arrangement)
They go there until they are almost 3 and move into Børnehave.

They go to Børnehave from around 3 to around 6.
Børnehave is mostly learning through play and generally short activities in a morning.
There's beginning to be more pressure on Børnehave to make children School Ready, so they do do basic literacy and numeracy
They have language tests which are much less about reading and more about spoken language.

They start "pre-school" at their future after school club generally in the May before the August they start school. (Or at least it works like this in my municipality!)
This is a transition to school and they meet the teachers, get to know the pedagogs at the after school club and do some activities that get them used to sitting and listening.

They go into "Børnehave Klasse" nursery class at the age of 6 and they have a year of getting used to school, mainly learning about sitting still and getting used to the structures of school. Børnehave klasse is sometimes led by pedagogs instead of teachers. This is school though and the children definitely think of themselves as being at school, even though it is more "playful" I guess!

They start 1. Klasse at 7 and now they learn how to read and write more formally. They have been doing bits before but there's not pressure on correct letter formation, on writing left to right. They start doing more "proper" maths and other subjects too (Personally I think It's incredible that they start so late! I sometimes find it hard to pitch activities for the 5-8s I work with as they don't really know how to write or read, so it changes how you have to do things!)

The school year goes from Jan - Dec too kind of like Scotland.

I know they learn English from 2. Klasse so they are about 8 when they start English lessons.

I don't know much about the ins and outs of the system after this apart from school goes up to 9. Klasse and after that they can go to a more academic college or a vocational college.

School goes from 8-2 and from 2-5 most kids go to a Fritidshjem or Skole Fritids Ordning (an after school club basically). this is run by pedagogs and as well as looking after kids from school to pick up time, it's the place where there can be a focus on social learning. There is an afternoon snack offered (rye bread and veggies and fruit) sometimes they make food from scratch with the children. They can do woodwork, theatre, dance, sport all sorts. It's super cool! I work in a Fritidshjem and there is an amazing focus on vulnerable kids and helping them learn social skills. I think it's Great they get school and Fritidshjem, as some kids really struggle at school, but we don't often see that as we are so free flowing, so I think they get more chance of having success experiences. The pedagogs have 4 year degree, so know their stuff!

I think that uk schools need a Fritidshjem system, I genuinely think it could save lots of children from falling through the cracks!

Denmark has private schools, free schools, little schools and international schools... I don't know much about those though!

Hope it helps! I might ask about for more info if folk are interested? :)

That’s fascinating Gierg - thanks so much for your input.

SeniorCitizen the above attached email came from the placing request administrator at the council - not the school in question. Anyhoo - this is a total derailment of the thread (sorry!) and really not what I started the thread for so I’ll sign off from this particular conversation just now and let the thread carry on!

Oh and I love that you call some of the teachers/staff pedagogs Gierg! I know that teacher is one of the original meanings of the word, but it just makes me think of my Granny who always (rather disparagingly, but with a twinkle in her eye) called my aunt a pedagog for her pedantry!

I see we've not had much on the English system perhaps as so many people know how it works. Not sure about early years which I think has been covered but children start primary the Autum they turn 4 so think turn 4 31 August start school the next day. You can defer untill the term they turn 5 but they will start ation the class they should be in . So a Four year old with an August birthday would go into year 1 with kids already there for a year instead of reception. Odle very few if any parents defer.
Primary School is 4 to 11 reception to year 6 with sats at year 2 and 6.
Secondary in our area is 11 to 16 only finishing with GCSE . All the school sixth forms have been closed due to reduced government funding.
16_18 is a limited choice of colleges. Only one being a specialist 6th form.a levels and BETC available in all.

I think that we could expand a little on the later years in Secondary school ( often called HIgh school in Scotland)

Most students going to University in Scotland will have an unconditional offer. These offers are based on Higher results done in the second last year of school- the last year is often devoted to advanced study ( and Exams - Advance Highers) Students can also use that year to take additional exams, or resits.

Scottish students going to a Scottish University do not pay fees- these are paid by the Government.
And also on a personal note Student Nurses are still paid bursaries. This is not means tested and it is a grant- non repayable- and announcements made last week will see that amount go up to £10000 a year . ( you can tell one of my kids is a student nurse!!)

@TamiTayorismyparentingguru

glad it was useful! It was a bit of a word com!

Yeah! Pedagogs are totally differently trained to teachers. Teachers are about education and learning "stuff", whereas pedagogs are about welfare and people skills really!

It's all so interesting! I love working in Denmark and the danish system. I really feel sad for British kids sometimes, but then I think I also feel sad for danish kids sometimes, as I have such fond memories of English school!

Norway

Primary school is 7 years. You start the august of the calender year you turn 6 (so you are either 5 or 6 when you start, jan birthdays are the oldest and decembers birthdays the youngest)
Lower secondary is 3 years (8-10). Primary and lower secondary together are the comoulsory 'basic school'. There are seperate primary and lower secondary schools are also combined schools (where i live the kids do 7 years at a primary school and then travel for three years to a combined school)
upper secondary is 2 or 3 years depending on the course you choose (and your grades from lower secondary will determine if you get in).

You are guaranteed a place in your catchment school at every level but can also apply outside catchment (common at upper secondary but fairly rare otherwise)

Before school most kids go to kindergarten (ages 1-6), parents pay for this but it is heavily subsidised. Kindergarten is not compulsory but most municipalities run programs or schemes to encourage at least a year of kindergarten before school start.

For years 1-4 there is a subsidised before
School / after school / holiday club.