to ask if you can afford a 'private' school in the UK but have chosen to send your child/children to a state school why?

[Foreverexhausted]

My three year old DD has just started a nursery attached to a fee paying school. I chose the nursery because it is by far the best nursery in the area but unfortunately we can't afford to send her to the school itself as fees are £15k per year per child and we have two children.

We have friends who could afford private schooling but their children are in state schools and then others who can't afford it but are just scraping by because they like the status of children attending a private school.

I think the major difference is that if you have enough money and you try the state sector and it's not the right school you can then opt in and go private.

Or if you get the 'bad rough' school then you can avoid it.

My DSS is 14 and at a big comp. He very smart but unfortunately its not cool to be clever at his school we are trying to get him to think about 20 years time when it is cool to be able to buy a nice car etc.

Ennirem - other than VAT on school fees and higher taxes for the wealthy - please list your manifesto for a fairer society where by people would not be tempted to ever look 'private'. I want to hear more.....?
You are an Oxford educated intelligent person, the brains elite. I am not.

I don't want VAT on school fees!!! Where did I ever say that??

And re the Oxford educated intelligent person, hardly. I did an Masters in Women's Studies there, they let a goat in to do that*

It has not equipped me with a wide-reaching and deep understanding of how economics works. However, better informed people on that subject than me are convinced capitalism is a con and there are better ways. I like to vote to enable those people to demonstrate this, because I believe it too, on an instinctive level.

The thing I find interesting is, on this thread we are (presumably) all lay people. Those arguing for the status quo aren't required to itemise exactly how the current system of education has arisen, under what policies, enabled by which legislative acts of parliament, or explain in detail how the fees, tax system and charitable status of private education institutions interact with the state education system to its betterment or detriment. Nor did the systems currently in place develop from a complete and detailed manifesto for private education; but rather grew over time, driven by various political and economic factors. However, anyone suggesting that this has not been beneficial and society should move in another direction apparently has to have a fully delineated 25 year plan of how this should happen, be they the shadow education secretary or some randomer on Mumsnet, or their opinion is discounted. Hardly seems fair to me (I do go on about fair, don't I?)

• That's another funny point about private schools actually. My DP says his private school used to try and steer boys towards applying for the particularly undersubscribed courses at Oxbridge to boost their success rates for Oxbridge entry, e.g. other half wanted to do English Lit so they advised him to apply instead for Anglo Saxon Literature and History, as only about 4 people applied for that every year and he was bound to get in

There are certainly enough chips on certain posters shoulders about the 'rich'. When NHS charges come up they bleat they these poor people wont be able to afford £10 if they don't turn up for appointments. When something is 'free' then people will not concentrate on it. It doesn't matter if they 'fall asleep' and forget, we shouldn't fine them.... Well, I have heard everything now. Will the snowflakes be excused when they fall asleep and forget to go to work.

People call ambulances for all sorts of things. There is a cost but no one really cares. Until we start allowing people to take responsibility for their own actions regardless of how much they earn or not how on earth can we change things.

Mandarine

the fact is in any society, some people will always be entrepreneurs and wealth creators. People have different skill sets

That may be true but it does not necessarily follow that the wealth they create has to be for themselves alone, or even mostly for themselves. Why should it? After a certain level of need and comfort have been met, additional wealth is proven to make you no happier. And for those with the skills and drive to innovate and create wealth, surely there is pleasure in the undertaking which, assuming a certain quality of life, would be reward in itself? I have never understood why we pay people more to do 'elite' jobs that they actually enjoy doing, and less to people doing menial, hard or unpleasant tasks which we all need done but few would wish to do (bin men, care workers etc).

There is obviously a widening gulf in British society and education is key in how we can begin to address this, but I still would say life is fairer here than in so many parts of the world.

That may be so, but as you say the gulf is widening. Do we have to wait until the levels of corruption and inequality are despot failed state level before we seek to ameliorate them just because it's worse elsewhere?

I wish schools were more equally resourced; I wish all parents valued education as a route out if poverty. I don’t know what the answers are on any level

But if the issues were actually affecting you and yours, I would imagine your husband and yourself would turn your educated, entrepreneurial minds to the task and come up with a few ideas at least. It's easier for people to throw up their hands when the status quo works well enough for them. Understandable and natural at the day to day level, but as members of society when we vote it should be for what's right, not just right for us. if you acknowledge there is a problem, as you do, at least every few years you are honour-bound to assess who you think is most invested in and capable of finding a solution, rather than saying "but actually this problem works very well for my child" and voting for policies you know will widen the divide and perpetuate the problem.

*There are certainly enough chips on certain posters shoulders about the 'rich'. When NHS charges come up they bleat they these poor people wont be able to afford £10 if they don't turn up for appointments. When something is 'free' then people will not concentrate on it. It doesn't matter if they 'fall asleep' and forget, we shouldn't fine them.... Well, I have heard everything now. Will the snowflakes be excused when they fall asleep and forget to go to work.

People call ambulances for all sorts of things. There is a cost but no one really cares. Until we start allowing people to take responsibility for their own actions regardless of how much they earn or not how on earth can we change things.*

I'm not saying people shouldn't be penalised for wasting NHS time and money (although how on earth this conversational outcrop came off a discussion about private school I'm still not sure); I'm saying the penalties should be proportionate to their means. And if that means we can fine them nothing, that is because that is a person with nothing to lose, literally no slack in their chain whatsoever - which surely is a sign that something has gone drastically wrong with that person's life and society has failed them?

Although frankly no idea why I'm replying to you, contemptuous use of the word 'snowflakes' marks you out as an idiot.

least every few years you are honour-bound to assess who you think is most invested in and capable of finding a solution, rather than saying "but actually this problem works very well for my child" and voting for policies you know will widen the divide and perpetuate the problem
You know nothing of how @Mandarine casts her vote.....were you assuming or just to preaching to us all again?

Tinkobell

The latter

Wow. This thread has drifted! Where is OP? What do you think of what you've read I wonder?

I have never understood why we pay people more to do 'elite' jobs that they actually enjoy doing, and less to people doing menial, hard or unpleasant tasks which we all need done but few would wish to do (bin men, care workers etc).

Who says people doing well paid jobs enjoy them and people doing low paid jobs don't? I am a professional but I hate the work and can't wait to retire. I have a lifelong friend who works minimum wage in a local shop and loves it. Lots of people do voluntary work for no pay and love it. There is no co-relation between liking/hating your job and pay. GPs are very well paid, but they are reducing hours and taking early retirement in their droves. It's not all about the money. If more people had the ability/access to do the so-called "elite" jobs, they wouldn't be elite, and the increased supply of labour would reduce the pay.

I have never understood why we pay people more to do 'elite' jobs that they actually enjoy doing, and less to people doing menial, hard or unpleasant tasks which we all need done but few would wish to do (bin men, care workers etc).

Pay is determined by supply and demand most of the time. People able to convince large corporations they’d make good CEOs, top lawyers, experienced engineering consultants, consultant doctors and so on are in short supply. People willing and able to be bin men or carers less so.

Some jobs are in demand but still low payed such as nursing but that’s because the government is a monopoly employer and their pay is set in rigid pay bands by the nhs rather than set by the market, nurses in many other countries make significantly more money.

Yes I know you were cake - I made one of those points myself (though I was talking about educational attainment rather than money or status) but I didn't make it a propos of nothing, I made it in answer to the question "why wouldn't you go private if you could?" Which first begs the question Why would you go private when state education is free? And I can't see a particularly good answer for that at the abstract level, though there may be any number of individual reasons

In not saying "anyone can be an [elite job]". I'm saying the work in elite jobs tends to be more desirable, so those with the capacity to do them and who choose to do them don't necessarily need the incentive of high pay. Of course those incentivised purely by high pay might be put off in that incentive was removed... But surely that would be better for them (most people fit for elite jobs have transferrable skills they could take to a job they actually liked) and for the business/employer/profession as then it would be peopled by those who were passionate about the work itself?

And reversed at the lower paid end - there are probably quite a few professionals and lots of mid ranking office workers who would make fantastic care workers/nursery workers/teachers/volunteers etc, and feel fulfilled by that work, but instead sit at desks putting in passionless, unproductive hours because they cant afford a £15k salary reduction.

E.g your professional job that you hate: if you could earn exactly the same salary working the hours and duties of an worker in an elderly care facility, which would you choose? What would you choose to do for a job if all jobs paid the same?

I've gone way overboard on this thread though. I'm distracting myself from various things and the activity andcquality of the debate on here was so stimulating I got overexcited. Apologies all and I'll sod off now with my ranting

“But if the issues were actually affecting you and yours, I would imagine your husband and yourself would turn your educated, entrepreneurial minds to the task and come up with a few ideas at least”

Possibly yes, Ennirem, but ideas are one thing, effecting societal change is another. Plus don’t presume that because people appear wealthy, they have always been so, or are any more selfish than the next person. Where I grew up the poverty was on a different level and of a different nature to the kind of poverty in the UK.

What do you mean by, “we pay people more to do elite jobs that they actually enjoy doing.” What elite jobs and how on earth can you quantify who enjoys what? Most people just do what they can to the best if their ability and hope for the best. Also, when you say, “after a certain level of need and comfort have been met”, people should give any excess to others. Well how long is a piece of string really? Where do we set the bar and what is “enough?” Should we weight it according to region, individual needs, family size - what? Should we set the bar according to British stsndards - is that fair to the rest of the world? You must see that people will never agree on what is a”certain level”. Human nature and real society just isn’t like that.

To be honest I would rather work with the elderly (and have indeed done so) than a similarly paid “professional” job in insurance or whatever.

It depends on what your child needs I think.

My sister joined a private school for 6th form as our local secondaries just didn't provide the range of classes she needed at A-level to get onto the uni course she wanted.

The pay isn’t to incentivise people to do the work at all, it’s to get them to work for whoever is paying them vs someone else. Additionally if you’re doing consultancy or are a partner you get profits as well as wages.

@Ennirem -There are a vast majority of people in professional job roles who actually enjoy what they are doing (myself included) maybe not so much the hours but I actually enjoy my job. There are also a vast majority of people in less elite jobs who are not entirely happy with the job or their pay. My mom works in a specialised role for the NHs and though not greatly paid, has great job fulfilment. She wouldn't change it for the world! On the other hand, my friend who is a teacher considered a change in career purely because her salary doesn't allow her to achieve the things that brings a level of comfort to her and her kids life. I think there is a wider issue here and it goes way beyond private schooling.

I think private healthcare geared only to those who could afford it is more appalling to me than the issue of private schooling. I say that as someone who fortunately has access to private healthcare through work however, I still shudder at the fact that a great quality of healthcare is accessible only to those willing to pay for it. I will still use it as my health is important to me and it is the same principle for private education. These options are present due to a gap in the level of service provided by the government.

Ennirem Fri 19-Oct-18 13:14:07
I've gone way overboard on this thread though. I'm distracting myself from various things and the activity andcquality of the debate on here was so stimulating I got overexcited. Apologies all and I'll sod off now with my ranting

No don't go!!!! I enjoy talking to you!!!!!

Ennirem I agree that the GDR and the Soviet Union were far from ideal and yes, the gap between the elite and the people was smaller.
However, in your hope for a more equal society, is it just as much a desire to punish the rich and influential as improve the lot of the disadvantaged?

Good idea for a thread there Ennirem. I don't know what I'd choose. Something more creative than my current job probably, though am not sure that's where my talents lie. How much would wannabe novelist with no discernible talent pay?

Hell no dapplegrey if we could raise everyone up to the level of the richest in society I'd be all for it. I don't want anyone to suffer! (Well I could maybe stand to see Cameron and Rees-Mogg suffer a little bit 😆). It's not about punishing anyone, it's about distributing what are limited resources to the best possible advantage for everyone to thrive. Unfortunately that means a few will have to come down to balance out the many coming up to meet in the middle. But I don't relish taking hinge away from people.

I have a couple of "rich" friends (what a line!!) and they're lovely people, give to charity, do good works... And vote progressively 😉 of course they could be true saints and give all their money away, but that's unreasonable to expect of them. I'd like to think, if my glorious rule came to pass, why I had to take a lot of it away from them. And that what they were left with was enough to make them happy.

Cherry thanks XX

Really am pissing off now!!!

“Ethnic”?