to want to change the way we talk about PND?

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I think it's great that its really quite normal and accepted to talk about PND now and it's so important that it is and stays that way, but I still don't like the way it's being treated like some sort of illness that can be solved by throwing a few pills at a mum, almost as if its the mums fault and her responsibility to "fix" herself - wheras I feel that its really just the natural consequence of never ending extreme sleep deprivation and the relentless demands raising a newborn has on a mother.
And once we've talked enough about that maybe even demand actual real life support for new mums instead of lacing them with chemicals, like a NHS sponsored night nurse once a week up until 4 months (a girl can dream).

I mean we are currently well off enough to afford a night nurse once a week, and its really the one thing that stands between me and insanity, and if I wouldn't have that, you bet I would get depressed!

PND is more than just sleep deprivation though. Depression has a basis in chemical imbalance which is treated by drugs. Having a night off a week wouldn’t solve the problem.

I think the expection that it can be resolved with a few pills goes for any depression tbh.

And for a lot when the pnd is due to hormonal imbalance then those pills will go a long way to help

It needs to be looked at on a case by case basis what will help —as with any depression

You're right OP the label PND is thrown around a lot. Often it's used to excuse the father of the baby from pulling his weight.

The two mums I know who have the diagnosis also have partners who do literally nothing to support them or look after their own offspring.

I do not think that a coincidence.

True PND would be something that arises in a situation where the mother has full support.

There is a difference between PND, a potentially life threatening chemical imbalance, and being at your wits end due to zero support and a non sleeping baby.

The majority of MH provision has always been to medicate people for normal responses to crap situations.

But sleep deprivation is a huge contributing factor in depression. I just feel that its like the elephant in the room that would be so common sense to adress - and its not, at least not by the medical profession.

You know, like once upon a time people were sent on a break in the countryside to recover from illness? Why not prescribe a mothers helper and take it from there... Pill can always be taken in addition but wouldnt it make sense to start there?

There's far more to PND than sleep deprivation.

Throwing drugs at the problem is the result of a massively underesourced NHS. They do little more than that for people with the most severe mental health conditions, who are too ill to even contemplate having a child. I'm not sure where you think funding for night nurses is going to come from!

You're not being unreasonable to expect holistic care for your condition. You are being unreasonable to think that PND should be treated any differently to any other mental health condition.

Prescribe a mother's helper? What would that look like, and cost?

I got hideous PND and I'm a privileged middle class white person with a fantastic partner and a wealth of family support.

The pills did fix me. I'd like to see the discussion changed so that pills are seen as a good thing, like they are for every other illness.

`I've got tonsillitis, but all the doctor wants to do is chuck a few pills at it'.

I’m one of those fortunate ones who never suffered sleep deprivation with my kids
However I still got terribly ill, mentally. So no, I agree with those who say it all needs to be assessed case by case. I was already getting shit loads of sleep

Exactly rednaxela.
Im reminded that my own DH was convinced i had PND where i was just exhausted from two DDs under two and pissed at what my life had become (temporarily). It sure sounded like criticism to me, and the expectation was to sort myself out. Im sure Im not the only one who was bashed around the head with the term PND while conveniently ignoring the extremely rough realities of raising young children.

Didnt take it lying down and part of reason we have a night nurse this time around, but i feel the first reaponse to a young mother having a hard time should be "let me help you get some sleep" not: "please check with your GP (if you are alright in the head)"

I do agree with you regarding sleep deprivation. I have 1 year old twins, they have slept through the night maybe once or twice. Once actually being last night - yippe!

At the begging I don’t think I had PND I think I was just depressed and anyone would have been in my situation. Looking after two new horns with no outside support aside from my DP was he hardest thing I have ever done and I have a pretty stressful job.

There was no rest, I didn’t know when one day ended or one day started as I was permanently awake. I would dread going to bed because I didn’t know how many times I would be woken. It felt like torture falling asleep for 10 minutes to then be woken and this process happening again and again and again.

I’m very fortunate that DP does 50:50 of the child care and more than his share of nights. With out him doing the nights and letting me sleep I can honestly said I would have had a mental break down.

You can’t function when you haven’t slept properly for weeks or months , you can’t care for you your child properly, you can’t care for yourself, your house and everything gets in top of you and you struggle to find any joy in any day.

Are you now saying that you're not talking about PND at all?

Where do you suggest this funding for night nurses and home helps is going to come from?

I think your understanding of any depression is sadly lacking and it is insulting to those suffering depression to tell them they just need a bit more sleep and that you would suffer from it of you didn't have a night nurse once a week.
You really need to go and do some proper research before making such insulting sweeping comments.

I knew a women who was actually prescribed a 1 hour afternoon nap and 2 mothers helpers for a year due to depression. This was over 70 years ago and in a different country though.
She said it helped her massively and she continued the afternoon naps untill she died aged 99.

If money wasn’t an object then I think such a scheme would be a fantastic idea (alongside medication and therapy if needed).

Not saying that it would be easy to get funding for mothers helper or night nurse but if we could start talking a lot more about the dangerous effects of sleep deprivation on young mothers (and their children) - and there are real dangers to this from being more receptible to illness(that can be passed on to baby), depression, child abuse, child neglect, the actual dangers of operating on fumes while nursing at night, driving, costs of divorce etc etc.
In short raise awareness for sleep deprivation just as was done for PND and bring it out in the open not as a "matter of fact fact of life" or the stufg of comedy, but as a problem looking for a solution, that could save society as a whole a lot of hurt

Im not saying people with PND should just get more sleep- i would love the conversation to continue so that more mothers with sleep deprivation could get more help instead of being labelled as "depressed" as was done to me...

No one is disagreeing on the effects of sleep deprivation, but PND is so much more than that. You shouldn't trivialise the causes of what can be a desperately serious condition.

And what help do you realistically think the NHS can offer for sleep deprivation? Your current solutions are totally unworkable.

EllaNB i can totally relate, I had a few years like this with my older DDs and it would infuriate me whenever someone would suggest I was just depressed. Of course I was with two non-sleepers and not a minute of rest during the day. But still now that PND is so well known it was so easy for people (say DH) to suggest I was having a problem. Posters here are a bit naive not to realize how its being talked about by a lot of people...

"Just" depressed?

You have no understanding of what a serious condition depression is.

Well I'm pretty sure I'm depressed and the baby's slept through since 8 weeks, so not sleep deprived. And if someone turned up and said I'm here to look after the baby on a night that would make me feel even more of a sgit useless mother

Bombardier, well we could start maybe by first of all asking if any struggling mother is getting all the support she can and talk about how inhumane the first months of motherhood instead of asking to evaluate HER mental health immediately. It smacks me often as a bit of a cop out of helping

*shit

I think you've sort of conflated two issues here.

What you're saying OP is that the label of PND is used too much and that sometimes it is erroneously ascribed to new mums who haven't got it but who are just sleep deprived?

I don't know how prevalent that is, but I agree that diagnosis of PND need to be accurate.

but I still don't like the way it's being treated like some sort of illness that can be solved by throwing a few pills at a mum, almost as if its the mums fault and her responsibility to "fix" herself

Diagnosed PND IS an illness (as with all mental health issues) and sometimes taking medication IS the best way to sort that.

I think you are taking your experiences and projecting them onto other people. Sleep deprivation is horrible but that doesn't mean less focus should be put on PND. PND is horrible and as someone who suffered I'd feel pretty shit if I went for help and was told to just sleep more

I had PTD with my first eleven years ago. It was severe and along with it I didn’t sleep for six days after I had given birth. I was offered no help, no professional support, I was 17 at treated horribly and given the opportunity would have happily taken tablets or anything to help me.
With my second three years ago, I was excited and tired but in a normal way and I had HV and midwife every day, regular GP visits to ‘keep an eye on me’ and was offered pills numerous times no matter how much I told them I was fine.
I think a lot of the time though now DR’s try to be safe rather than sorry. There is a difference between a tired mum and one suffering a chemical imbalance which can lead even to psychosis which cannot be helped without medication so is essential. If left untreated PTD can be horrendous so as much as I think pills should be an option, there should definetly be different types of support. Not sure about someone else stepping in to look after DC’s though, but helping at least.