to want to change the way we talk about PND?

[extrastrongnosugar]

I think it's great that its really quite normal and accepted to talk about PND now and it's so important that it is and stays that way, but I still don't like the way it's being treated like some sort of illness that can be solved by throwing a few pills at a mum, almost as if its the mums fault and her responsibility to "fix" herself - wheras I feel that its really just the natural consequence of never ending extreme sleep deprivation and the relentless demands raising a newborn has on a mother.
And once we've talked enough about that maybe even demand actual real life support for new mums instead of lacing them with chemicals, like a NHS sponsored night nurse once a week up until 4 months (a girl can dream).

I mean we are currently well off enough to afford a night nurse once a week, and its really the one thing that stands between me and insanity, and if I wouldn't have that, you bet I would get depressed!

Im totally using my own experiences here and in my experiences its easy for people to say "youve got PND and should see a doctor" instead of trying to understand how hard caring for young children is and that feeling not too great while suffering from sleep deprivation is completely normal and to be expected and something that can often be alleviated much more by giving a hand than worrying about mums mental health.

And my point really is i guess that i wish the conversation could evolve from "maybe she's got PND" when a mum is struggling to "of course she is frigging depressed! Its complete torture to caretake of a small infant that sleeps 2 hrs on stretch at most and nurses nonstop on the waking hrs, and how on earth anyone should be expected to live through this for montha on end with a smile is beyond comprehension" . i guess defending the mom a bit. I guess that was the spirit that i find lacking when my attitude is talked about as mum of a newborn and thats the sentiment of this post.

YANBU to want sleep deprivation to be spoken about more as a real and serious issue, but you seem to be doing so by peddling some really harmful ideas about depression. There's no 'just' about depression and it's an illness so it's not surprising that treating it with medication is an option.

But not all mothers of newborns are depressed - I'm not/wasn't (I have a three month old) even though the sleep deprivation hit me like a tonne of bricks in a way I wasn't expecting. I've had bad days/weeks, been exhausted, etc - but I'm not depressed, and I know partly because I have been depressed in the past, before I had DS. That was also partially situational (it began while I was finishing my PhD) and I heard a lot of 'everyone finds this hard and feels low'. That wasn't supportive, it was dismissive - actually, everyone finds it hard but not everyone is suicidal. Medication improved things very quickly. I can't speak as someone with PND but I would guess the same is true - it isn't the case that all new mums feel like that and telling people it is just makes them feel weak for not coping.

If someone had tried to tell me that my crippling PND which left me with psychotic thoughts of killing myself and my baby was "the natural consequence of sleep deprivation", as if every new mum felt the way I did, I would have lamped them (or, to be honest, finally given in to the overwhelming urge and just done away with myself). This was despite an incredibly supportive partner who was more than doing his fair share of both daytime and night wakings.

Finding the right medication saved my life. Within a month I felt I was coping and within two I was enjoying things again. My sleep hadn't improved much (in fact it was worse as I wasn't able to nap during the day any more) and my baby wasn't placing any less of a demand on me - again, probably more - but the medication had reset my broken brain and I was able to function.

I totally agree that women should have more support post childbirth and that even without PND it can be a terribly lonely, difficult, upsetting time, but PND is so much more than sleep deprivation and the strain of being a new mum, and trying to lump them in together is incredibly damaging. PND is a serious mental health problem and needs to be treated accordingly. Honestly, this thread almost made me cry thinking that mums who have undiagnosed PND might be reading it and thinking "I guess there's nothing wrong with me and this is just normal and I'd be okay if I got more sleep".

Maybe leave the discussion about PND to medical experts and people who have actually had it?

The reason PND is often treated with antidepressants alone is because antidepressants have been shown to be very effective at curing it.

A good Dr will try and look at the causes of your depression before formulating a treatment plan (I'm lucky enough to live in an area where there is a specific perinatal health team so I had a full assessment for my PND).

A lot of PND Is just caused by chemical or physical factors (as was mine) and whether or not it is can often be determined by the particular symptoms of the depression (e.g presentation of psychomotor disturbance early on).

More sleep wouldn't have helped me, my baby was an excellent sleeper.

This said, I think counselling should be offered to all PND sufferers as the fallout from suffering the PND can be a lot to deal with once you are getting well again. At present, under NICE guidelines, GP's are only allowed to offer antidepressants OR counselling (except in severe cases). Counselling tends to be some shitty, but generic CBT anyway.

She’s right that depression isn’t just a ‘chemical imbalance in the brain’ though.

Yes medication can help and work wonders, I have taken antidepressants myself and they were great, I am not knocking medication. But when we talk about depression as just some kind of chemical imbalance that needs rebalancing, totally separate from whatever else is going on in our lives, that’s not helpful for understanding it either and like OP says can lead to the idea that eg PND is a problem isolated to the woman’s brain chemistry and fixable with medicine, totally separate to the situation she’s in.

@peachgreen do you mind if I ask, did you find that everything seemed a massive effort even something as simple as washing the pots and that you didn't enjoy anything even events that you should have enjoyed like your siblings wedding? I'm pretty sure I'm depressed just wanting a little more info before I go down the docs and get told I'm not depressed just lazy and a shit parent

@53rdWay I see what you're saying but there's a big difference between situational depression (best treated with therapy and life changes) and, for want of a better word, "medical" depression like PND. Personally I don't think situational depression after childbirth is the same as PND (not saying it's any less serious or difficult, just that it's different and therefore needs different treatment).

@Aftereights91 Nobody can tell you if you're depressed or not and if you're struggling you should definitely seek medical help. At my worst I could barely drag myself out of bed, I cried constantly, I obsessively fantasised about my daughter dying and my life going back to normal, I felt no love for her whatsoever and I actively considered suicide many times. At crisis point I made up my mind to do it and called my HV to come over (without telling her why) so that she would arrive in time to look after my daughter after I'd died. Thankfully she came immediately before I'd done anything and she got me the help I needed. Now I love my daughter more than anything and I can hardly recognise the person I was back then.

There’s not a clear line though. Mine was ‘situational’ depression in that it was triggered by life circumstances, but antidepressants were the absolute best choice when nothing else was working. (And they did work wonders and were brilliant, I would recommend to anyone who is worried about taking them as I was.)

I don’t at all want to diminish the role of physical processes of pregnancy/birth/afterwards in PND and postpartum psychosis. But I know that for a lot of people, this idea that depression = ‘chemical imbalance’ leads to distinguishing ‘real’ depression from ‘not real’ depression or thinking “well I can’t be properly depressed and need medicine because my depression started when something upsetting happened.”

Really interesting and eye opening to read all the personal accounts of PND, defintely learning smthg today.
So its only me who was bashed around the head with "maybe youve got PND?" when i was just frazzled and sleep deprived?😮
Would have thought Im not the only one...

Because i felt quite attacked with that term when I would think it should be expected that a young mum would be less than smiley and happy clappy while living under conditions any prisoner would apply sue at Den Haag for

I didn’t after the birth extrastrong but I did find that when I needed help during pregnancy, it got waved off as “oh your hormones will be all over the place.” Including once when I told a midwife that I needed help and wasn’t coping.

Fair enough @53rdWay I see what you're saying. I suppose from my perspective that would be clinical depression triggered by situational depression (in that situational depression gets better when the situation changes but clinical doesn't) but I agree that anything that stops people seeking help is definitely a bad thing.

@extrastrongnosugar i expected to be sleep deprived when my baby was born, i prepared myself. Luckily for me my baby has always slept brilliantly.

However, sleep deprivation is completely different to PND. For me sleep deprivation is to be expected with a newborn, PND isn't and needs to be treated like any other depression, most of which are treated successfully with pills.

i wish the conversation could evolve from "maybe she's got PND" when a mum is struggling to "of course she is frigging depressed!

I find your comments insulting and absolutely minimising what a horrible debilitating illness PND and the effects it has on women and their families.

Maybe you should follow a PP’s advice and leave the talk about how PND is spoken about to medical experts and those who have or are suffering.

I dont agree with this post at all. Post natal depression IS an illness and DOES need to be treated in a number of ways, one of which can be medication. It's not just something that happens when you have a baby! I never had post natal depression or anything even remotely close to it. I never had a night nurse or any support except my partner (moved to a new location away from friends/family for partners new job just before birth). This lack of support didn't GIVE me post natal depression - I was simply lucky enough to not get this illness. Just like people with plenty of support and ideal circumstances can still get it. It's nowhere near as simple as "having a baby is hard so now I'm depressed, but if I had a nanny then I'd be fine" or something.

I'm not sure it was worded very well but I don't think the op is saying PND is not an illness? I read it as PND is an illness, and a serous one, that should be treated medically by a doctor. Struggling with the newborn baby stage, feeling tired and sleep deprived isn't an illness but a perfectly normal reaction to a difficult time. Suggesting that new mothers experiencing the latter normal reaction must have PND and therefore be treated medically (which was the OP's experience) is not helpful and trivialises the very real and debilitating illness that is PND.

However I don't agree that it's the job of the NHS to provide mothers help in the latter situation....

Sorry that last sentence should have been provide 'a Mother's Help', not that they there should be no help available!