To think that the Christian bakery case has potentially created a dangerous precedent.

[SummerGems]

So, Christian cake bakers in NI have won their appeal against their refusing to bake a cake with a gay marriage slogan on it.

The judges have voted unanimously that this was not a case of discrimination or politics but that it was about freedom of speech and that they would have refused to make the cake even if it had been a straight person wanting the cake with a gay slogan on it...

But the sexuality argument aside, this has surely raised some questions in terms of the equality act and how far one should be allowed to go against that in the name of free speech?

After all,if your beliefs decree that people with disabilities are so because of the sins of their ancestors, or that single parents are committing wrong,should they be allowed to say so and refuse to serve them on the basis of their beliefs? Where does this end?

One of the things commonly said about the similar US case was that it wasn't about taking away someone's freedom to choose when to use their skills, but on how the bakery treated them based on their sexuality (released their details publically, online harassment, and so on).

To my knowledge, there is none of that in this case. They were free to buy a cake from there and decorate it as they wished, but you can't make someone write something, draw something, print something, create something political just because you're willing to pay them. This applies to women's rights and I'm not sure why it wouldn't - there is a reason feminist press is a thing, many mainstream places wouldn't publish those things. Many activist groups have had to make their own spaces to make things others don't want to do.

There are people who won't buy from Asher bakery because of this. Saying they shouldn't be legally punished doesn't mean you support them. I don't use a local establishment after they screwed over many groups, including those that ran the local women's disco, but they were within the law and I don't think they should be brought to court because of it, I just don't support them and warn others of their business practices.

So if a bakery refused to ice a cake saying Fight racism, because they were proudly racist, then you think that is okay?
What do you mean by "okay"?
Would I think the racist baker was an okay person? No
Would I think they were within their rights to stick to what they believed in as long as they were not actively trying to stir up race hatred? Of course!
People say and beleive all sorts of mad shit. You can't police thoughts or belief.

I am a firm supporter of equality and gay rights. I am no legal expert. But I understand the legal ruling in this case, whether I agree with the cakemakers and their beliefs or not (I don't). They did not refuse to serve the customer on the basis of his sexual orientation. They refused him on the basis of the message. I can think of many instances of tenets of religions that I disagree with and that I would refuse to bake a cake carrying, for example, an anti abortion message. I would not be refusing them because they are practising that religion, but because I disagree with the message they want me to write.

both parties are protected characteristics I think. tricky to balance rights though.

I am so glad they won.

I am a passionate supporter of equal marriage.

But as other posters have said, I do think it is wrong to force a business to support a message they disagree with.

Summergems, no-one is comparing gay marriage to swastikas. They are simply assuming you think swastikas are a bad thing, and trying to provoke empathy as to how you would feel if you were obliged to produce a product supporting something you are against.

And for those choosing to be patronising about freedom of speech- they finally won an appeal at the Supreme Court. They have lost their case a number of times. It’s hardku clear cut when law makers have already said they DID act in a discriminatory fashion. Yes the Supreme Court disagreed eventually but it was hardly clear but was it?

Well done Ashers for confirming N.I. As the embarrassing backward little outpost of the UK where bigots are free to roam, refusing marriage equality to its citizens, denying women abortion rights and pretending that one of the geological wonders of the world was built by a benevolent dictator in the sky a few thousand years ago. Genuinely ashamed to be Northern Irish today.

Similarly a Jewish restaurant refusing to sell a BLT, if a BLT wasn’t on the menu then I wouldn’t expect to buy one there. But if the BLT was on a menu and a waitress refused to serve me on the basis she was Jewish and being so meant she couldn’t handle bacon she would be the one being unreasonable.

That's not analogous to what happened here though. The equivalent would be going to a bakery that sells chicken sandwiches and beef sandwiches, and expecting them to make you a pork one. Granted, the bakers here didn't help themselves by initially accepting the order, but nonetheless they still shouldn't be compelled to provide a pork sandwich just because someone asked for one. If they were providing pork sandwiches to other people, or they said the reason they weren't providing a pork sandwich to a particular customer was because that customer is gay rather than because they don't serve pork, that would be discriminatory.

I’m not sure this would’ve happened outside of NI either actually (not the event, the appeal finding)

both parties are protected characteristics I think

But gay people are not fully protected when they cannot legally marry in NI.

Well said, Barracker. I concur.

Otherwise, we're heading for 1984.

It says NO ONE has the right to make you do something you don't believe in.

Tell that to the taxman.

Nope it doesn’t compare with a vegan restaurant because a vegan restaurant is openly vegan by virtue of having a vegan menu.

If this bakery wants to be promoted as a Christian bakery then presumably they should be open about what they refuse to print based on their beliefs i.e. nothing which supports homosexuality and anything else which goes against their personal beliefs.That way the customer knows what they’re getting into before they order the cake rather than afterwards.

If you want to compare, e.g.there was a programme on bbc last week covering the Christians against poverty charity and their work. I watched some of it and it was very god focussed and an article I read about it said that there was much pressure felt to pray and go to church and so on. Now while I don’t like that kind of approach to things where the religious message (of any religion) is part and parcel of the mainstream work they do, the reality is that if you seek debt advice from a Christian based organisation whose name even reflects this fact,then you go in with your eyes open to what they’re about. Debt advice yes, but with a religious element. You go in with your eyes open, in the same way that if you put your children in a church school you can hardly complain that they have worship on the agenda....

But in this case it was just a bakery which happens to be run by Christians. As such it was about their personal beliefs against gay marriage (and copyright hasn’t been brought up at all so that is irrelevant)

I wouldn’t have gone to court over it and would have taken my business elsewhere instead.And neither do I think they should necessarily be made to sell to a customer.However,I do think that given they have now expressed these views they should be more transparent about where their boundaries lie in terms of what they are against in order that the customer can make an informed choice based on what they know to not be on offer....

If they’re prepared to refuse to do business with someone on the basis of them wanting a gay-related slogan then at the very least they should be prepared to be open about that fact.

The ruling came from the Supreme Court which is the UK's highest court. It was not a NI court Glintandglide. The court in NI originally ruled against Ashers.

I know what it’s like to be gay in N.I. - there is huge bigotry, ignorance and hostility and it’s allowed to pass. I don’t think it’ll be long before another company or B&B will refuse service to someone LGBT emboldened by this. LGBT people face prejudice constantly in N.I. From name calling to threats. I hope that THIS encourages LGBT people to start speaking out. But given the attitude of N.I. Police re:!gay people i’m Not sure they will. This was an unusual case only in that the guy spoke out against Ashers.

He went to the shop and asked for this message on the cake to goad them. I fully back gay marriage, but what this man did was horrible and unnecessary. He did it only to try and proof a point.

Is nothing to be with having a vegan restraunt. Vegan restaurants don’t cater for meat eaters. At all. This bakers do ice slogans onto cakes- all the time- but decided the wouldn’t ice this PARTICULAR slogan.

I may be missing the point a bit here, but when did it become a thing to ice political slogans on to a cake as opposed to just personal goodwill/celebratory messages? Don't protesters usually paint their slogans on to giant placards or bedsheets to be displayed prominently in public places rather than just ordering a 9" cake with their strongly-held views iced on to it that they can invite a few people to come up close so that they can read it?

How is it anything like you being asked to do something illegal senua? It’s nothing like.

OK, perhaps I over-egged the pudding but the principle still stands.
I have come across situations which weren't illegal but which made me feel uncomfortable. I walked away from them and want to retain the right to do that.

But that’s related to the ethical code you must uphold as part of your profession there is literally no comparison

However,I do think that given they have now expressed these views they should be more transparent about where their boundaries lie in terms of what they are against in order that the customer can make an informed choice based on what they know to not be on offer....

If they’re prepared to refuse to do business with someone on the basis of them wanting a gay-related slogan then at the very least they should be prepared to be open about that fact.

Yes, I think that's fair. Your OP is completely unreasonable (I'm bi and a strong supporter of same sex marriage rights being extended throughout the entire UK but this is absolutely the right decision) but of course they should be clear about what they will and won't do. Clarity and honesty also gives those who may not want to purchase a cake with a pro equal marriage slogan but who also don't want to support homophobia, which this is, the ability to go elsewhere. Best for everyone.

The court in NI originally ruled against Ashers.

Interesting. So the NI court, which clearly exists to uphold and defend NI law, categorically doesn't itself support gay marriage - and yet finds against Asher's for their apparent unwillingness to endorse the supporting of gay marriage. I personally don't like the loaded word 'bigot' but many people would think that this stance perfectly epitomises it.

Ashers isn’t a ‘christian’ bakery. It’s just a bakery. Which, as it turns out, is own by evangelical religious bigots. There’s no big cross on the wall as you walk in, the sign isn’t a giant fish, there’s no hymns playing as you walk in. The cake was for an event. They do event cakes. No one was trying wind them up - until this point I doubt that anyone in N..I. Knew or cared about the religious persuasion of the owner/s.

Interesting to see how many people support free speech but only for people whose views they agree with.

And how everyone who disagrees with them is a bigot. But not the other way of course .

And a suprisingly large number of people appear to think that other people should compelled print political slogans they disagree with. But not them of course .

So if gay marriage is illegal in NI, it's possible that the bakery had taken a couple of days to say actually no, because they were getting legal advice?

For me, it doesn't matter what the message was. It was refused on the grounds of supporting something that is currently illegal within that country. I may not agree with the laws within certain countries, however, who am I to say to businesses that actually you should do x,y and z and support something illegal?

I don’t think it’ll be long before another company or B&B will refuse service to someone LGBT emboldened by this.

Well, if it's a B and B and it's anything like the one in England that denied a double room to a gay people purely because they were gay, they'll be breaking the law and hopefully will feel the full weight of the sanctions available.