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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that the Christian bakery case has potentially created a dangerous precedent.

565 replies

SummerGems · 10/10/2018 11:46

So, Christian cake bakers in NI have won their appeal against their refusing to bake a cake with a gay marriage slogan on it.

The judges have voted unanimously that this was not a case of discrimination or politics but that it was about freedom of speech and that they would have refused to make the cake even if it had been a straight person wanting the cake with a gay slogan on it...

But the sexuality argument aside, this has surely raised some questions in terms of the equality act and how far one should be allowed to go against that in the name of free speech?

After all,if your beliefs decree that people with disabilities are so because of the sins of their ancestors, or that single parents are committing wrong,should they be allowed to say so and refuse to serve them on the basis of their beliefs? Where does this end?

OP posts:
2BoysandaCairn · 13/10/2018 21:36

JaneEB
Please read the court ruling summary its on this thread earlier.
It clearly say that the MacArthur family used the Asher name, as it was Biblical, but never advertised they where a Christian bakers. Mr Lee had bought cakes from them before, and decided to get the cake from them.
He did not know they where Christians, they say they did not know he was gay.
It took 2 days to cancel the order, not done in shop.
The Supreme court clear state this wasn't a stunt.

Spread mistruths like yours, just makes people like me, believe in the wrong result. Please stop it

LassWiADelicateAir · 13/10/2018 21:42

2 Boys- no, As the judgement ^In a nutshell, the objection was to the message and not to any particular
person or persons^. They did not find he had been directly or indirectly disriminated against. They also disagreed with the lower courts that “this was a case of association with the gay and bisexual community and the protected personal characteristic was the sexual orientation of that community”

There found nothing for him to hang his hat on. Ashers employ and serve gay people; support for gay marriage is not limited to the gay community nor is opposition limited to hetersexuals. Ashers would have refused to write that message for anyone.

Aridane · 13/10/2018 22:19

I found 2cats post of 7.17am powerful and illuminating

PennyMordauntsLadyBrain · 13/10/2018 23:03

Illuminating in what way, @Ariadne?

I’m NI born and bred- I’m in a mixed marriage and have never voted DUP.

That post is a load of sensationalist nonsense, and doesn’t describe my experience of living here at all.

Comparing not being able to do your shopping before 1pm on a Sunday as being in any way similar to living under a Nazi regime enters a whole new realm of stupidity.

Flatasapancakenow · 13/10/2018 23:12

Also Northern Irish and agree with penny.

DioneTheDiabolist · 13/10/2018 23:36

Another NI Mnetter here. It is incomprehensible to compare 21st century Northern Ireland to Nazi Germany.Shock What did you find "powerful and illuminating" about it Aridane?Confused

RedFallLeaf · 14/10/2018 08:56

Glad everyone and the courts saw sense tbh

SnorkFavour · 15/10/2018 15:29

OP, I can't see your argument AT ALL.You think the gay community should have freedom of speech but not the Christian community!

This is SO hypocritical.

Should a muslim baker be forced to depict his God doing something demeaning? Or just depict him at all even...they would rightly refuse.

The bakery was more than happy to serve the gay couple, they just can't promote gay marriage, just like a muslim bakery also can't.

There were MANY gay people commenting just after this baker was taken to court stating that they felt it was simply awful to strip the baker of their right to their beliefs while expecting acceptance themselves. The majority said they'd rather use a baker that supported them anyway.

This isn't about being gay, it's about being free to peacefully follow their religion. If they were homophobic they would have refused the gentlemen service.

Would you make a cake that depicted something that went against your religion or personal beliefs. For example, would you ice a slogan that said women are inferior to men? Or anything really. It's their religion and just as important as a muslims right to not eat pork or make cakes of their prophet.

Hideandgo · 16/10/2018 13:32

All the gay people I know in NI, and I know many, are seriously boycotting Ashers. And rightly so. Because whether they won the judgment or not, and whether the legal point was technically ok in relation to how the law is currently written, they are bigots. And that does actually mean something to a lot of people, gay or straight.

DarlingNikita · 16/10/2018 13:37

I agree, Hide. I would boycott Ashers too if I were in NI (I'm not gay, I just don't like bigots). But I think the ruling was correct.

Hideandgo · 16/10/2018 13:42

Technically correct. Not morally or ethically or professionally. But we’re so glad here in Northern Ireland that so many people have weighed in their very important and well thought out views on the technical application of discrimination laws in Northern Ireland. The 23 pages of views from so many experts have been fascinating.

pennydrew · 16/10/2018 13:47

Not morally or ethically or professionally. But we’re so glad here in Northern Ireland that so many people have weighed in their very important and well thought out views on the technical application of discrimination laws in Northern Ireland. The 23 pages of views from so many experts have been fascinating

🙄 actually the decision was right morally too, you cannot compell speech and you shouldn’t want to. For someone so angry that these people are being so intolerant, you’re incredibly intolerant and entitled yourself.

Overwhelming those commenting agree gay marriage should be legalised. We all also overwhelmingly agree the Ashers are being homophobic in their belief that gay people shouldn’t be able to marry. The difference is we also all mostly think that legally, we should not force people to think or speak anything they don’t want to. That’s not just a legal thing, it is indeed still morally the right thing to do. It’s weird that you can’t see how wrong you are.

Hideandgo · 16/10/2018 13:59

So Penny, how exactly does anti-discrimination law work then in your world where people can say, think or do anything they want (because it’s their right to believe it)? It would be immoral and illegal to stop people from discriminating or using hate speech if you are correct.

No. Discrimination is not legal and it is not immoral to try to stop people discriminating regardless of their beliefs. This case passed the discrimination test on a technicality.

pennydrew · 16/10/2018 14:04

in your world where people can say, think or do anything they want

Are you deliberately misquoting people here or are you just not very smart?

This isn’t even about free speech! My goodness. This case was about COMPELLED SPEECH. Forcing someone to write/say things is nothing to do with discrimination laws! A technicality that’s pretty important ffs, being that they would
happily serve them, but not write the slogan. Why do you keep ignoring what everyone is saying to you? It’s weird. It’s simply untrue to say this was about discrimination. It is 100% immoral for you or anyone else to try and force your beliefs on others either legally or otherwise.

LassWiADelicateAir · 16/10/2018 17:53

Technically correct. Not morally or ethically or professionally*

What is "professionally" incorrect about it? I don't agree it is morally or ethically incorrect but at least I understand the point you are trying to make.

But we’re so glad here in Northern Ireland that so many people have weighed in their very important and well thought out views on the technical application of discrimination laws in Northern Ireland. The 23 pages of views from so many experts have been fascinating

As fascinating as posters like you telling 5 Supreme Court judges they are wrong.

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