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Original poster

To think that the Christian bakery case has potentially created a dangerous precedent.

565 replies

SummerGems · 10/10/2018 11:46

So, Christian cake bakers in NI have won their appeal against their refusing to bake a cake with a gay marriage slogan on it.

The judges have voted unanimously that this was not a case of discrimination or politics but that it was about freedom of speech and that they would have refused to make the cake even if it had been a straight person wanting the cake with a gay slogan on it...

But the sexuality argument aside, this has surely raised some questions in terms of the equality act and how far one should be allowed to go against that in the name of free speech?

After all,if your beliefs decree that people with disabilities are so because of the sins of their ancestors, or that single parents are committing wrong,should they be allowed to say so and refuse to serve them on the basis of their beliefs? Where does this end?

OP posts:
Kr1stina · 12/10/2018 20:42

I think you’ll find that LassWiADelicateAir has an extremely good grasp of this and other legal rulings.

letsgetreadytosamba · 12/10/2018 20:43

I don’t think you’re understanding what’s happened walkingdeadfangirl.

Take abortion as an example - also not possible in NI. Someone wants “support abortion” or perhaps “ban abortion” on a cake. The baker refuses. Does that mean people who take the opposing view are unwelcome in the shop? No, it just means the baker won’t make a cake with that particular slogan.

Asda reserves the right not to print something on a cake if they’re not happy with it.

TomPinch · 12/10/2018 20:49

But a consequence will be that gay people will feel unable to go into that shop because of the owners hostile beliefs. Its divides society into businesses that tolerate difference and those that dont.

What an owner of a shop believes is - quite rightly - entirely irrelevant according to the law, as long as it does not mean people are treated differently on the basis of a protected characteristic. If a person believes that all gay people are going to spend enternity in fiery torment, but treats all his gay customers with the same smile (or scowl) as all his other customers he is not breaking the law.

"I would not open windows into men's souls.": Elizabeth I, late 16th century.

Anyone - gay or otherwise - is entitled to refuse to provide Ashers with custom if they want. But as long as we do not discriminate, we are not obliged to contort ourselves in order to protect other people's feelings, and why should we be?

SneakyGremlins · 12/10/2018 20:51

Walking dead animal - I'd still go into the shop Hmm they have a right to not write things they aren't comfortable with

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 12/10/2018 21:02

I can't see many LGBT people feeling welcome in shops that are openly offended by who they are. Will this spread to discriminate against other groups of people and fuel hatred of minorities.

I wonder if I can commission a cake that is decorated with the slogan "Woman: Adult human female". It would be worth the plane ticket to Northern Ireland just to watch heads explode.

DioneTheDiabolist · 12/10/2018 21:08

Not from Ashers. The only thing they'll write on cakes now is Happy Birthday Name.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 12/10/2018 21:09

(I know. It was a tongue-in-cheek post. If I really wanted to do it, I'd find a bakery in London and then have it delivered to Pink News.)

TomPinch · 12/10/2018 21:25

Also walkingdeadfangirl your example can be turned round. What about Christians "feeling unable" to go into a cake shop run by a same-sex couple? Well, you will be pleased to know that the law doesn't give a shit about that either.

You seem to misunderstand the rationale for human rights law. It doesn't just protect causes, beliefs and characteristics that are in fashion right now. It's not a vehicle to advance any particular right, but simply to protect those rights.

You should consider the fact that the bakery had the Equalities Commission against them. Losing the case could have meant losing the entire business. The only reason why they were able to fight it was because of help from a voluntary organisation. Has it crossed your mind that the Equalities Commission don't seem to have paid much heed to their equal civil rights?

Presumably you disagree with them. So do I - I would have been delighted to provide the cake complete with requested message. But that's not the point. We may be sure that we're right, but times, opinions and facts change: everyone in the past probably thought they were as right as we do now.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 12/10/2018 23:00

Why would any gay person go into that shop and order a cake, I know I wouldn't. Would a black person go into a shop knowing the owners hate black people. Would a Muslim person shop in a place that hates Muslims? You might be allowed into the shop but that doesn't mean you are welcome. The ultimate conclusion is that gay people will be in effect be 'banned' from some shops.

The reverse is also true, but given the majority in the UK are white & culturally christian it will have close to zero effect should a gay couple ban heterosexual supporting cakes.

LassWiADelicateAir · 12/10/2018 23:05

Just seconding etc- all the responses.

the point of this ruling and the consequences are two different things. Do you think this will have no consequences at all?

The consequences which you anticipate (with no justification that they will inevitably follow) are already covered.

LassWiADelicateAir · 12/10/2018 23:16

I doubt very much that Ashers hate gay people. I would assume it is more likely Ashers think gay people have strayed from the path of righteousness and if anything pity them. However as actions, not thoughts are policed Ashers is free to hate whomever they like as long as they do not act on it.

If I were a baker and I were commissioned to make a cake saying "Support Independence for Scotland" or "Support the wearing of Burqas" I would refuse. I don't hate either Indie supporters or Muslims but both of these are causes I profoundly disagree with.

0rlaith · 12/10/2018 23:22

Well put Lass. Disagreeing with people is not the same as hating them.

Disagreeing with someone doesn’t make you a bigot. Otherwise everyone on this thread is a one.

So many people here seem to be against free speech.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 12/10/2018 23:24

I would assume it is more likely Ashers think gay people have strayed from the path of righteousness and if anything pity them

If your gay its pretty much the same thing. Religious righteousness is pretty hateful. One is granted entry to heaven the other is hated damned to hell for eternity.

0rlaith · 12/10/2018 23:29

Really ? Is that what the Ashers said ? I didn’t read that anywhere . Can you link for me please .

SneakyGremlins · 12/10/2018 23:33

It is not "The same thing"

carpettile · 12/10/2018 23:39

People should be allowed to not write something they disagree with no matter what that is. As long as they are not causing harm or inciting something then in my opinion it is fine. Otherwise you are discriminating against the bakers beliefs !

carpettile · 12/10/2018 23:40

Well said Lass

CherryPavlova · 12/10/2018 23:54

I know many Christians who don’t ‘hate gay people’, who don’t believe they are ‘straying from the path of righteousness’ but who retain the belief that the Sacramet of Marriage is defined as being between one man and one woman committing to each other for life before God.
They would be equally unaccepting of a civil ceremony being a marriage despite it being a lawful wedding.

The ruling upheld the right of people not to have to produce something that was against their fundamental beliefs. Religion is a protected characteristic too. We might disagree with that belief whilst, as a free and civilised society, we absolutely respect their right to hold that belief. Anything less is a really dangerous path for a nation to tread and would be as intolerant as their view appears to many.

JAPAB · 13/10/2018 00:16

I wonder what you can infer someone's attitudes to be towards Muslims for example, from the information that they do not want to support polygamous marriage.

2madcats · 13/10/2018 07:17

I just wanted to explain from my point of view why I think this judgment has caused so much angst in NI.

Living here is like living under an oppressive regime. The DUP were formed by a free Presbyterian minister (look up the free p's of which the Ashers owners are members- they are the puritans of our day)
The DUP supported save Ulster from sodomy campaign.
They block us having access to abortion, they prevent a fair vote on equal marriage, ni is dead on a Sunday morning due to restricted opening hours and it's not that long ago that children's play parks were chained up on Sundays!

So the only equivalent I can think of is living under the nazi regime and a nazi baker refusing to bake a cake that says support the rights of Jews to be treated like human beings because it is their belief that Jews shouldn't be treated as human beings.

I understand the importance of free speech but I hope this explains why this ruling still makes me sick to my stomach.

2madcats · 13/10/2018 07:22

Oh and even more annoyingly it's our own fucking fault that the DUP keep getting in because people here vote for orange politics instead of for social ideologies!

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 13/10/2018 07:36

Why would any gay person go into that shop and order a cake, I know I wouldn't. Would a black person go into a shop knowing the owners hate black people. Would a Muslim person shop in a place that hates Muslims? You might be allowed into the shop but that doesn't mean you are welcome. The ultimate conclusion is that gay people will be in effect be 'banned' from some shops.

This thread is like playing whack-a-loon.

shakeyourcaboose · 13/10/2018 07:47

I've had a bad night so l'm absolutely hoping my fatigue is factoring in to my wrong inference that pp is likening the non icing if words on to a cake that was made for someone to genocide?!

2madcats · 13/10/2018 08:03

Not genocide but NI has the highest suicide rate in the U.K. Mental health here is appalling.

Flatasapancakenow · 13/10/2018 08:07

2madcats Ashers bakery/the family who own it are not the DUP. You obviously have an issue with the DUP's policies, but we thankfully live in a country where democracy and free speech are valued.
The DUP are very open about their policies and they still get people's votes.

We are not living under the Nazi regime because you can't go clothes shopping on a Sunday morning.