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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that the Christian bakery case has potentially created a dangerous precedent.

565 replies

SummerGems · 10/10/2018 11:46

So, Christian cake bakers in NI have won their appeal against their refusing to bake a cake with a gay marriage slogan on it.

The judges have voted unanimously that this was not a case of discrimination or politics but that it was about freedom of speech and that they would have refused to make the cake even if it had been a straight person wanting the cake with a gay slogan on it...

But the sexuality argument aside, this has surely raised some questions in terms of the equality act and how far one should be allowed to go against that in the name of free speech?

After all,if your beliefs decree that people with disabilities are so because of the sins of their ancestors, or that single parents are committing wrong,should they be allowed to say so and refuse to serve them on the basis of their beliefs? Where does this end?

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 11/10/2018 16:37

MR Bridge has often posted glowing comments about OFSTED and Sir Woodhead's leadership, he even glowing commented on an obituritory thread

Apart from this thread I have mentioned Chris Woodhead once, on a thread following his death. To describe that as "often" is a ridiculous and to describe my one comment as "glowing" is a bit of a stretch. I tend to concentrate on the positive when someone dies so that was only a small part of my views about him.

I have not frequently posted glowing comments about Ofsted. That is complete rubbish. As is the other stuff you posted about me which I find extremely insulting.

Still waiting for your apology.

shirleyschmidt · 11/10/2018 16:39

Freedom of speech is also freedom not to say something you don't want to. If the gay bloke wants a cake with a certain slogan he's perfectly free to make it himself, or choose any of the many others who would have done it. He's an entitled prat riding the PC wave hoping to get some dollah. Glad the bakery won.

prh47bridge · 11/10/2018 16:39

So it's ok to have free speech, but I the thick one can't have no time for the likes of PRH47BRIDGE

I have no problem with you having no time for me. I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. I do have a problem with you making claims about me that are completely wrong and deeply insulting.

Everanewbie · 11/10/2018 16:51

2BoysandaCairn take your infantile class war rants elsewhere. We're talking about forcing someone to print something they disagree with.

amicissimma · 11/10/2018 16:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Everanewbie · 11/10/2018 16:52

shirleyschmidt - This with bells on it. Great summary.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 11/10/2018 17:02

2BoysandaCairn take your infantile class war rants elsewhere.

Thank you.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 11/10/2018 17:03

2Boys What on Earth are you here for?

You don't seem to find any joy from the site, the posters, the threads. Why continue to torture yourself?

You could just cease and desist here and find another forum that better suits your wants / needs!

Seriously, you probably feel all the better for it!

foggetyfog · 11/10/2018 17:18

I think it was the correct decision as does Peter Tatchell, the leading gay rights activist in the 80s and 90s for those younger than me who may not know of him. The judges have made a legal decision and unlike in the US, I don't think politics has anything to do with it.

This case is about people's right to not do something which goes against their belief - in this case not icing a cake with a statement promoting something they disagree with.

If a Martian walked into a cake shop and requested the slogan "All Earthlings should be killed" or to use the OPs example "people are born disabled due to the sins of their ancestors" or "everyone should eat bacon for breakfast" it would be up to the the shop whether they felt they wanted to fulfil the order or not. Nothing to do with the gender, colour or religion of the person placing the order, all about the beliefs of the person fulfilling the order..

Free speech means people have the right to hold unpopular views that offend other people. It is precious.

MmeBoulaye · 11/10/2018 17:29

Gaaawd this is so tedious. Live and let live and if you encounter a business owner’s refusal that doesn’t please you, then respect that as they seem to have valid reasoning, then freakin’ get over it instead of snowflake protests in court.

2madcats · 11/10/2018 17:56

Yes but the problem is that living in NI means you are much more likely to come up against strong Christian values (DUP old white male types who are against equal marriage but will carry on shagging all round them with each others wives)
LGBT could end up having to work twice as hard to find a business for example willing to print wedding invitations, they may even have to go to another country! Hardly fair or equal!

PolarBearkshire · 11/10/2018 18:03

Whatever business they MUST keep free will and free speech rights too. If they didnt agree with a slogan - so what? I disliked that they were punished for so neurotic thing when it has happened and now I am
Glad for them. Pathetic . Absolute exaggeration. If somebody asks me to say or write something I dont like or dont agree with...I wont! I think many groups , minorities just whinge about everything. They want more rights than a simple avergafe person. It is ok for somebody not like them- you cant force anybody to like you whatever if you are gay or perfectly straight (and Christian). I dont think we could force atheists to cite and write for us some prayers right?
But they did not refused the service etc. Just the slogan. Customers should be less neurotic and just scribble ot themselves really. Not hard.

Lellikelly26 · 11/10/2018 18:06

I thought it was an appalling judgment. Opposing the slogan is discriminatory. They were asked to bake a cake not agree with the slogan. Do they genuinely wish everyone they bake for a happy birthday/wedding / anniversary? Do they like every theme of cake they make? Probably not. I think they should have been professional and make the cake without complaint

abacucat · 11/10/2018 18:08

Yes I thought it was an appalling judgement.
And I am aghast that anyone thinks Christians are discriminated against in Northern Ireland. Christianity has in reality ruled NI for far too long.

FekkoTheLawyer · 11/10/2018 18:08

I guess it's a case of whose rights trump whose. Did he have a right to cake? It's not like they were withholdoling medical treatment.

MrsPeel · 11/10/2018 18:10

Its a difficult one this - originally I thought the baker had refused to make a cake for a gay wedding which would be clearly discriminatory - but to refuse to put a slogan on that conflicts with your beliefs? If you think that is not acceptable you have also to agree that a baker with deeply held anti fascist beliefs should not be able to refuse to put a slogan on a cake promoting a white supremicist party.

2BoysandaCairn · 11/10/2018 18:12

CuriousaboutSapphire
To answer your trans gender question, I want trans gender people to have the same rights as anyone else, ie to live their lives in peace, not have extremes attacking their way of life, you know just like you live.
I have had a shit life thanks, dead brother, before I was 21 and a dad who committed suicide over it, a mum who developed PSP, and died a death no animal deserves, because the high court won't sanction the right to assisted suicide. My cousin was gang raped by the local private school students and failed miserable by the law courts, she hung herself, I at 22 had to deal with it. 1 great uncle was shot for going AWOL in WW1, 3 shell shock treatments sent back, 2 great uncles given hormone treatment for being gay, a brilliant great aunt been sectioned and sent to a mental hospital for daring to go out with boys. MY grandma and her sister where caned for daring to be left handed, her sister only had two fingers and toes on each hand and foot, and was told you can't be educated, my great granddad, caned their headteacher, every time he cane his daughters.

My first ever post was beg a poster who felt suicidal on the Brexit arms to seek help, I only post on threads I know about, so Ofsted rated 4 schools, the Alfie Evans threads (we donate brother's organs) and the odd brexit arms and 3 AIBU threads.

I don't care if you oppose my views, that's free speech, I am entitled to my views, not to be called an idiot, I already know that thanks.
But I have noticed there is a common theme on here, if you slightly side against what every one else believes, you are bullied, I looked for common ground on Brexit, got bullied off by remainers, tried to point out some Oxbridge posters where been rude and self centred told to piss off. There have been some brilliant posters, who have helped me understand the big bad world, but actually mumsnet is full of priveledged MC/UC people who don't have a clue over life in the northern coastal areas, and seem to want to shut us up.

Ironic, on a thread about free speech.

Sorry, but after all the death and disaster I have lived with, my 2 boys have never had more than 1 grandma, I just want people to live together, peacefully and love every one for who they are.
Sorry but this ruling isn't to me and it seems only me, so maybe I am wrong, but it my belief, and my right to say it, that is ruling allows people to disagree with that, and that breaks my heart

I bet they would have baked a cake supporting heterosexual marriage, so they are making same sex couples 2nd class citizens in my view. I will hold that to my dying days, but when your best mate drinks bleach, because his CofE father couldn't accept his son being gay, and dies 3 days later, maybe I will never accept that Christain have rights to not approve of LGBT people.
Sorry if I make you all uncomfortable, but I will never agree with you, and I believe that is my right, and I believe the supreme court and PHR47, might just have to accept that.

Nanalisa60 · 11/10/2018 18:13

well Said ginghamstarfish!! Can’t believe thousands of pounds were spent on this case totally waste off money!!

MrsPeel · 11/10/2018 18:13

Anyway this decision means that right wingers who support the baker will no longer be able to clutch their pearls at anyone "no platforming" a person whose beliefs they find offensive given that this was a kind of culinary no platforming!

LassWiADelicateAir · 11/10/2018 18:14

I'm loving all these , I assume unqualified posters, telling Lady Hale and Lord Hodge and the other 3 judges that they got it wrong.

LassWiADelicateAir · 11/10/2018 18:17

Anyway this decision means that right wingers who support the baker will no longer be able to clutch their pearls at anyone "no platforming" a person whose beliefs they find offensive given that this was a kind of culinary no platforming!

Oh ha ha. Right wingers calling for no platforming- what alternative universe are you in?

"No platforming" is the war cry of the deluded left; right wingers are generally very supportive of freedom of speech and thought.

Nanalisa60 · 11/10/2018 18:19

Has anyone watch one flew over the cuchoo’s nest lately!! Well sometime I think the world has turn into a big mental asylum!! And I might be one of the few people left with common sense!! But maybe not my dh often says I’m as mad as a box of frogs!!

MaxDArnold · 11/10/2018 18:19

No platforming" is the war cry of the deluded left; right wingers are generally very supportive of freedom of speech and thought. am right wing, can confirm

Nanalisa60 · 11/10/2018 18:20

It’s only a cake!!

abacucat · 11/10/2018 18:21

Homophobia is alive and well in Northern Ireland. Some of you have no clue how hard it can be being lesbian or gay.