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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think that the Christian bakery case has potentially created a dangerous precedent.

565 replies

SummerGems · 10/10/2018 11:46

So, Christian cake bakers in NI have won their appeal against their refusing to bake a cake with a gay marriage slogan on it.

The judges have voted unanimously that this was not a case of discrimination or politics but that it was about freedom of speech and that they would have refused to make the cake even if it had been a straight person wanting the cake with a gay slogan on it...

But the sexuality argument aside, this has surely raised some questions in terms of the equality act and how far one should be allowed to go against that in the name of free speech?

After all,if your beliefs decree that people with disabilities are so because of the sins of their ancestors, or that single parents are committing wrong,should they be allowed to say so and refuse to serve them on the basis of their beliefs? Where does this end?

OP posts:
DarlingNikita · 10/10/2018 17:35

The customer's sexual orientation had nothing to do with the issue.

This is an interesting point. What if someone who the bakery perceived to be straight had asked for the same message? Would they have refused them?
And also, is it fair to say that it's more likely that someone wanting a 'support gay marriage' message would be gay than straight? In that sense, it IS to do with sexual orientation.

PaulDacrreRimsGeese · 10/10/2018 17:47

If you're at all familiar with the denographics of NI blurredspeech, it's not weird that a person would happen upon a bakery run by evangelical Christians rather than Jews or Muslims...

Puzzledandpissedoff · 10/10/2018 17:47

Weird how these gay rights activists always target Christian bakeries but strangely avoid trying to show up Muslim or Jewish ones who would likely have the same response

Indeed Hmm

JAPAB · 10/10/2018 17:48

DarlingNikita if there was any evidence that the sexual orientation of the requester played a part in whether a design got approved or not, then let them be prosecuted on that basis. I doubt there is.

That people who request a particular message might be more likely to be from one group than another doesn't really have anything to do with it IMO. It is more likely to be a Muslim who wants a 'murder all those who reject Islam' cake or a Jew who want a ''support circumcision' cake. Still should be up to the business if it want to facilitate the promotion of such ideas.

RedHelenB · 10/10/2018 17:52

If I owned my own business there might be things I wouldn't want to promote like guns are good on a 5 year old birthday cake. So I think this ruling is correct in this case.

DarlingNikita · 10/10/2018 18:03

JAPAB, I'm not going to argue. I was just musing really. But it was kind of my point that there can't really be any evidence that the customer's sexual orientation played a part in it – unless, I guess, there was stone-cold evidence that they had agreed to ice the same cake for someone (perceived to be) straight.

PaulDacrreRimsGeese · 10/10/2018 18:11

Which there's not. They'd also apparently served this customer before, just with other items.

AgnesBrownsCat · 10/10/2018 18:11

I agree with the ruling . They refused the message , not to serve the man .
Since Ashers have won their case and had to self fund it does that mean the man Gareth ?? has to pay their costs ? I’m interested to know if he would have taken this so far if he had to pay for it himself .
I do think he deliberately went looking for a fight when he approached this particular bakery .

thisneverendingsummer · 10/10/2018 18:15

I am fully in support of the bakery owners, and am glad they won.

ANY OTHER RELIGION would have their beliefs upheld, so why should beliefs and values of Christianity not be upheld too?

The people who tried sueing the bakery lost, and they need to suck it up.

As I said, the beliefs of any other religion would be upheld, so this is the right result.

thisneverendingsummer · 10/10/2018 18:17

Weird how these gay rights activists always target Christian bakeries but strangely avoid trying to show up Muslim or Jewish ones who would likely have the same response.

EXCELLENT point!

Funny that isn't it, how these gay rights activists only pick on Christian bakeries? Wink

PaulDacrreRimsGeese · 10/10/2018 18:27

Do some of you think NI is replete with bakeries run by strict Jews and Muslims or something?

AgnesBrownsCat · 10/10/2018 18:29

Does anyone know who pays for all these court hearings? Heck of waste of public money !

prh47bridge · 10/10/2018 18:31

What if someone who the bakery perceived to be straight had asked for the same message? Would they have refused them?

The bakery was clear taht they would have refused to put that message on a cake regardless of who was asking.

I do think he deliberately went looking for a fight when he approached this particular bakery

I'm not convinced. The owners of the bakery had never advertised their beliefs or made them known to the public in other ways. Mr Lee (the gay man in the case) had bought cakes from them previously. The evidence was that he did not know anything about the bakers' beliefs and that neither the owners nor their staff knew about his sexual orientation before he ordered this cake.

Since Ashers have won their case and had to self fund it does that mean the man Gareth ?? has to pay their costs

His costs were being paid by the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland. I would imagine they will have to pay any costs claimed by the bakery. However, since their case was funded by others, I don't know if they are claiming costs.

SurfnTerfFantasticmissfoxy · 10/10/2018 18:34

The ruling was absolutely sound and correct in my opinion - the customer was not discriminated against because of his sexuality or for any other reason, they simply refused to produce a message / slogan with which they disagreed, as is their absolute right. They've stated since the verdict that the complainant is very welcome in their bakery any time. I sometimes make and sell cakes, I would refuse a commission which stated 'some women have penises' for example because I fundamentally disagree with that statement. I would never dream of refusing to make a cake for a customer because they were trans but I would not personally produce an item which contradicts with my deeply held personal beliefs.

AgnesBrownsCat · 10/10/2018 18:34

Unlikely Paul , what with it being a Christian country . Much like I wouldn’t expect to find many Christian bakeries in UAE . Christian beliefs( I’m not particularly religious) unfortunately seem to be fair game for ridicule .

AgnesBrownsCat · 10/10/2018 18:46

Is the equality commission not a government body funded by taxes then ?

GunpowderGelatine · 10/10/2018 18:51

YABU.

No one is saying homophobia - or racism, or sexism or ageism - is OK. I am confident in saying most of us would be repulsed by people who display such views. BUT the key thing here is subjectivity. This couple found the term they were asked to display on their cake offensive. I don't. Most people don't. But offence should be protected as subjective thought. What's offensive to me may not be offensive to you. And who is to say that one person is right or wrong in their personal opinions?

As a nation we could set out terms which said "X Y and Z is officially offensive and A B and C isn't" - but thats a little bit close to a dictatorship for my liking. We must protect freedom of choice and freedom of speech. No one should be forced to go against their beliefs in their business - no matter how much you disagree with those beliefs

PaulDacrreRimsGeese · 10/10/2018 18:53

Indeed, it's a very Christian heavy area, and those denominations of Christianity that have invented an anti-equal marriage stance on behalf of Jesus Christ are well represented. Whereas the Muslim population of NI was well under 0.5% at the last count, and the Jewish community is estimated to be in the three figures.

Really, if one comes across a religiously motivated homophobic baker in NI, whether by accident or design, that baker is going to be Christian. People just sound like arses when they ask why he didn't go to one of the oh so many strictly Muslim or Jewish bakeries that a regional population of about 5000 combined apparently manage to staff between them.

AgnesBrownsCat · 10/10/2018 18:54

So the Ashers fundraised to support their stance ? Maybe Gareth Lee will fundraise now to pay back the millions of public money he wasted .

GunpowderGelatine · 10/10/2018 18:59

ANY OTHER RELIGION would have their beliefs upheld, so why should beliefs and values of Christianity not be upheld too?

Because it seems that Christianity is fair game. I see all the time on MN especially. My DD attends as Catholic School and I mentioned in one thread that I believe the Christian teachings have made her a kinder more thoughtful human being.

Cue a barrage of "pffft oh yeah such great teachings with priests abusing boys". I'm obviously not condoning that but it stayed up despite my reporting and I was angry because if someone came on and said their Muslim School taught their child to be a good person, anyone saying "pffft yeah teaching them to blow up buildings" would most certainly be banned

PaulDacrreRimsGeese · 10/10/2018 19:07

This judgement has nothing to do with upholding anyone's religious beliefs. What's been upheld is the right to freedom of expression, which for some people will include the expression of their views on religion. They could've refused to make a pro gay marriage cake because they're atheists who just don't want the law changed, and they could still benefit from the same protections.

OnlyMakeBelieve · 10/10/2018 19:27

I am a Christian and would happily ice a "Support gay marriage" cake.

I'm also passionately pro-choice and if someone came to me asking me to ice a cake with "Ban abortion", I'd tell them to stuff the icing bag up their *ss and do it themself.

Does that make me a bigot, OP? Half a bigot?

CherryPavlova · 10/10/2018 19:34

I think it’s a sensible ruling that allows a a Christian couple the right to uphold their beliefs and customs. Religion is a protected characteristic just as much as sexuality.
Why go to court? Why not just go to a different baker?

Racecardriver · 10/10/2018 19:35

I think it's brilliant. I would refuse service if it involved print communist slogans given that three generations of my family suffered under an oppressive communist regime. I wouldn't live in a country where the courts would force me to print something so vile. I appreciate that not everyone agrees with me but that doesn't give them the right to force me to produce propaganda. Now you may wonder how my rant is relevant given that being a communist is not the same as being gay but you will find it quite clear from the judgement that this has nothing to do with gay people but rather homosexuality as a political and moral issue. The Christian bakers were just as opposed to same sex unions as I am to communism. And that is their right, forcing them to produce a product baring a slogan they disagree with because it was relevant to a protected minority group is oppressive. How would GC feminists feel if they were force to sell a cake asserting that transwomen are women? Look at it conceptually not through a faux Liberal bubble.

FekkoTheLawyer · 10/10/2018 19:35

It seemed to be a targeted stunt.

That's what irritates me. The small bakery spent £200k in lawyers fees but the man who complained spend zero and got a lot of PR. That's one small business (who I assume employs people and had suppliers) that may well have to close.

He could spend his time campaigning for child poverty, genocide, refugees but no, it was over a cake. And no, Bert n Ernie aren't gay anyway.

If they'd refused to bake me a cake because of some reason, I'd think (and probably say) 'you bastards' and take my money elsewhere. In fact I draw my own cake toppers and have them printed online and stick them on the cake myself - so I could have a huge willy in a pink fedora if I wanted.