AIBU?
Anybody up for discussing "Brideshead Revisited"?
questionzzz · 06/10/2018 21:52
I read the book many years ago (late teens/early twenties?) and it totally charmed me, as it was meant to.
Back then, I never even realised Charles and Sebastian were "doing it".
Now I am watching the old Granada ITV TV show with the young Jeremy irons (though he cannot quite pull off 19), with DD16.
She keeps chanting "do it" whenever they come on the screen.
I am confused.
PawneeParksDept · 06/10/2018 21:56
I read it years ago and thought that references to Sebastian's sexuality were incredibly subtle and I might not have realised if I hadn't already known.
Ultimately I felt that the book was really about the way in which Catholicism constrains people's choices in marriage.
woodhill · 06/10/2018 22:01
Funnily enough I was thinking about this the other day. The TV show was amazing and I remember watching it repeated in the 90s. I was thought that Charles rebuffed Sebastian and he was more into that very wealthy guy. I did read the book too.
I agree about him not being able to marry Julia because of her catholic values. I was always sad that Sebastian Disappeared to Italy.
questionzzz · 06/10/2018 22:05
i was sad that Sebastian became an alcoholic, and I hated Lady Marchmain. I still do. But 'm not sure what else she could have done?
I didn't think Charles was into "the rich guy" (do you mean Rex Mottram, Julia's first husband?)- but it seems clear he was taken up by the whole glamour and and aristocratic sheen of the Flytes', rather than actually loving Sebastian for who he is.
I also keep thinking as I'm watching the show it is SO MUCH better than Downton Abbey!!
LibraryLurker · 06/10/2018 22:06
When the book was written it was illegal for Charles and Sebastian to be "doing it". Waugh was reputed to have been gay/bi but he would never have written explicit scenes. I think you can see it either as 2 young men of their time being as close as some public school boys were. The portrayal of Anthony Blanche is an interesting counterpoint. Waugh wanted the book published so he was careful to be discrete. The TV adaptation took the same approach.
questionzzz · 06/10/2018 22:07
I also tried explaining to DD16 about how "back then", homosexuality was something you did, rather than something you were, but I don't think she got it. What do i know about it anyway LOL
questionzzz · 06/10/2018 22:09
@Library Right. I did not think of that. But it was like a "tacit secret", right? Like everybody knew it was going on, they just didn't talk about it.
PawneeParksDept · 06/10/2018 22:10
@questionzzz Did you explain that it was a criminal offence and lots of gay men today would in those times have married women to avoid suspicion and it was considered an unfortunate phase best denied or covered up
NoooorthonerMum · 06/10/2018 22:10
I thought the fact that they were gay was fairly explicit - Cara said "It is a kind of love that comes to children before they know its meaning. In England it comes when you are almost men; I think I like that. It is better to have that kind of love for another boy than for a girl. Alex you see had it for a girl, for his wife."
LibraryLurker · 06/10/2018 22:11
questionzzzzz I know what you mean. The way it was explained to me, long ago, was that in a closed society such as a single sex school or prison people will very often seek out love in whatever form it is available.
colouringinpro · 06/10/2018 22:12
I was always totally puzzled by this as a teenager, they appeared so close emotionally, but not physically. Now it makes more sense....
Has anyone seen the more recent film with Ben Wishaw and Matthew Goode? Can't find it on Amazon and Netflix - want to see how this portrayed in a more contemporary adaptation...
JustBecauseYouAreUniqueDoesNot · 06/10/2018 22:13
I love the book and the adaptation.
I think it is an open secret that in both they are ostensibly in love and probably had sex. There is a question as to whether Sebastian is the precursor to Julia or whether Julia reminds him of the things he loved about Sebastian. I think the former based on the ending but when they go back to see the house it is made very clear that he loved Sebastian and so he was foiled in his love twice over by their Catholicism
That's my take on it anyway.
PawneeParksDept · 06/10/2018 22:13
Charles' fixation was with the house and lifestyle that's clear from the go.
The Catholicism thing also affects Lord and Lady Marchmain. They are estranged and she can't remarry - he has to go abroad to have affairs.
JustBecauseYouAreUniqueDoesNot · 06/10/2018 22:14
"Has anyone seen the more recent film with Ben Wishaw and Matthew Goode"
I saw a trailer on YouTube and it looked awful! Changed the whole dynamic re Sebastian and Julia.
JustBecauseYouAreUniqueDoesNot · 06/10/2018 22:15
Oh but I agree with PP that Charles is drawn to them because of the old money glamour, which is why the beginning is such a great juxtaposition.
questionzzz · 06/10/2018 22:17
@pawnee No- I forgot to tell her it would have been criminal in those days.
But the way it is portrayed- everybody else knew they were doing it, right? cf. Cara's comment quoted above. I just never realised it from reading the book.
I also think Charles does not come out very well. He was not a good friend to the Flytes family.
Do people think Sebastian's family, specifically his mother is be blamed for his alcoholism?
Toastwater · 06/10/2018 22:20
I rewatched recently and it didn't occur to me that Sebastian and Charles were doing it. I thought Sebastian hung out with Anthony Blanche and other friends for sex, and Charles was mostly seduced by the family and their wealth/culture/history.
When watching as a teenager I mostly remembered the earlier university scenes, and the detail about catholicism passed me by, as did how brilliant John Gielgud was as Charles' father.
I also really noticed how Charles shifts from an everyman observer of the ratified Flyte family, to a rather unlikeable man. I had previously found his wife irritating and felt she didn't 'get him' (poor lamb) compared to Julia, but watching this year I realised I didn't care about him at all
InspectorIkmen · 06/10/2018 22:22
It was a brilliantly observed work. I think the thing I took from it was the definite realisation that Catholicism will win out in the end over love and whatever else might cross its path - also possibly that the class divide is impenetrable in the end.
PawneeParksDept · 06/10/2018 22:23
@questionzzz it's not just his family though you see. He is gay in a world where that's completely unacceptable
He isn't "straight acting" enough to pass for straight and keep that side on the downlow
He's also the heir and has a responsibility to produce the next one, something he can never do.
He's drinking to numb the pain of not having a place in the world he can fit, or live his truth openly
lucydogz · 06/10/2018 22:23
FWIW I think that Charles/Sebastian is the hook that we now latch on to, but Waugh didn't intend it to be so central. The problem with adaptations is that the real issue (for Waugh) was Catholacism. But you just can't do that visually.
I don't think he intended the reader to see Catholasism to come across as malign as it appears to us (or me, anyway). After all, he was a Catholic convert. But it is the central theme of the book.
I love the writing. When, early in the book. Charles is being driven by Julia and he lights a cigarette for her, and feels the 'faint, bat skweek' of sexuality pass between them. And Rex Mottram's education in the Catholic faith. And so much more
(sorry about the spelling)
questionzzz · 06/10/2018 22:24
Also- the Catholicism, in the end, it's just an excuse for control and power, right? In the book, I remember this whole fuss about Catholicism etc. Looking at the show now, it seems clear that Lady Marchmain is uses the religion as a means to emotionally control and manipulate. And not just her, religion in general comes across as something people invoke to mystify, exclude, and manipulate other people.
Eg Charles's discussion with Bridey. Which ends with him remarking "if I ever came close to converting, i would only need to chat with you for five minutes to change my mind".
Toastwater · 06/10/2018 22:26
Oh I'd forgotten about the wonderful Cara. Or perhaps it's more watching in this day and age it's neither here nor there if they're having sex, but their emotional bonds and Charles' love for and sense of responsibility for Sebastian is what drives his later actions. I think he feels like he's part of the family and takes on that responsibility towards Sebastian to almost justify his position at Brideshead.
Balaboosteh · 06/10/2018 22:30
I see what you are saying OP and also didn’t “get it” that they were having sex (or not?). But the erotic charge of the book and the original TV show which was on when I was about 11 or 12 were deeply felt by me and affected me profoundly as a young person repressing and denying their own bisexuality. But I do think now that it doesn’t really matter or not if they were literally “doing it” - it is describing an intense emotional affair, a deeply romanticised friendship, of the type of which I went on to experience myself. It is a hugely important book to me and the early chapters, the friendship with Sebastian are best part and I think this ambiguity is part of their power. I regularly re-read them!
questionzzz · 06/10/2018 22:32
@Lucydogs yes- i love those words, about the bat-squeak of sexuality too. And Cordelai making fun of Rex.
@Pawnee I completely disagree with your interpretation!!! I don't think Sebastian was drinking to hide the pain of having to conceal his homosexuality at all! He could spend as much as he liked with Charles or Blanche: aristocrats -especially aristocrat men- were never censured for being promiscuous, so long as they were more or less discreet!!! he was drinking because he couldn't stand his mother- it says that quite clearly in the book.
Also Sebastian wasn't the heir- Bridey, the eldest son was. Sebastian could have had the most marvellous time as the second son without a responsibility in the world- drinking, sleeping around, nobody would have batted an eyelid. He could more or less have lived openly with Charles, and so long as they didn't actually and directly say that it was what they were doing, they would have been fine. It was only because he was literally showing up drunk to family dinner and "getting lost" and spending all his money etc etc that the family stepped in, with disastrous consequences.
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