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AIBU?

Anybody up for discussing "Brideshead Revisited"?

76 replies

questionzzz · 06/10/2018 21:52

I read the book many years ago (late teens/early twenties?) and it totally charmed me, as it was meant to.
Back then, I never even realised Charles and Sebastian were "doing it".
Now I am watching the old Granada ITV TV show with the young Jeremy irons (though he cannot quite pull off 19), with DD16.

She keeps chanting "do it" whenever they come on the screen.
I am confused.

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Toastwater · 06/10/2018 22:33

I think the religion is controlling lady marchmain. She's so devout that when her children don't conform to the social conventions of her church it terrifying and devastating for her. The younger daughter is her in the next generation - the far reach of catholicism (or perhaps all religion) through the ages is particularly shown by the obsession with Lord marchmain accepting the church on his deathbed.

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ThefusilliJerry · 06/10/2018 22:35

In the words of Martin Amis, a really good bad book.
It’s utter trash really. I’m aware this opinion is treasonable

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woodhill · 06/10/2018 22:35

My memory is a bit rusty but I did mean Anthony Blanche and Sebastian were an item. I don't think Charles was gay. What is Charles married to Jane Asher in in the production or have I got that out of nowhere.

I just felt sorry for Charles as he could not marry Julia but then I was a lot younger and saw things differently then. I thought the Flyte family were users to be honest and treated Charles like some sort of lackey. I thought it was a shame Sebastian so good looking but ended up bald and I thought it was a terrible waste he wasn't married.

When is it on anyway?

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questionzzz · 06/10/2018 22:35

balaboosteh- omg those are the exact words I used to DD when she kept going on about whether they "do it" or not- it doesn't matter! don't you see! It is about a deep emotional bond- but tainted by Sebastian's relationship with his parents, and Charles weakness for glamour.

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questionzzz · 06/10/2018 22:38

@woodhill I'm watching it on britbox. I'm a colonial LOL
@Thefusili I honestly think Kingsley Amis is 1000 times better writer than Martin Amis, who is too bitter and lacks his father compassion for humanity.
But yes I know people think Brideshead Revisted is a "bad book"- bad like what? Like Danielle Steele? Like the da Vinci Code? Can youplease justify your opinion why you think it's trash?

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PawneeParksDept · 06/10/2018 22:38

@questionzzz Forgot about the other brother it's nearly 7 years since I read it.

I absolutely dispute that they could have lived openly at a time when it was an offence.

For Charles anyway, I think it was a bicurious experimentation rather than a sincere thing

I've only read one other Waugh, Handful Of Dust, it's so weird! But I've read pretty much all there is to read about the Mitfords and their set, he was close to Nancy and Diana and features heavily in their correspondence - his wife was also called Evelyn

Handful Of Dust is a satire based on the breakdown of Diana's marriage to Bryan Guinness

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questionzzz · 06/10/2018 22:39

trash like "50 shades of grey"?

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lucydogz · 06/10/2018 22:41

I honestly think Kingsley Amis is 1000 times better writer than Martin Amis, who is too bitter and lacks his father compassion for humanity.
Yes! I think you must be the only person that shares my love of KA. He's deeply unfashionable of course, but some of his books are so perceptive.

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TheSmallClangerWhistlesAgain · 06/10/2018 22:41

Charles, Julia and Sebastian all fall in love while trying to turn a blind eye to something that will inevitably, eventually stop them. With Charles and Julia it's her Catholicism and Lady Marchmain. With Sebastian, it's Charles not really being gay and being more in love with Sebastian's life than Sebastian himself.

Cordelia seems to be the only one who doesn't fall for this.

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lucydogz · 06/10/2018 22:41

I suggested Black Mischief for my book group. A very Marmite book.

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thighofrelief · 06/10/2018 22:43

It's not a sexual romance between Charles and Sebastian but rather a pure and childlike adoration. They are both products of their time, single sex boarding school and stiff upper lip. Charles falls in love with the whole family due to his complete lack of one. The scenes with Charles and his father are painful to watch. Lady Marchmain had hoped to recruit Charles into attempting to control Sebastian's alcoholism but i think ultimately it was a large part of who he was. Cara hints that the father used to be the same.

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questionzzz · 06/10/2018 22:43

@Pawnee eh, i think that particular class - they could sleep with whomever they liked, whenever they liked, that was the perk of being an aristocrat, amirite? I think it only became problematic if it became more than an "open secret"- if it verged into becoming a scandal, threatened property and money issues, reputations etc. As far as i recall from my Eng Lit days, nobody cared much about what second sons did anyway!

Have you read "The Loved One"? It is searing. I have read A Handful of Dust, and absolutely did not leave as much as an impression on me as Brideshead Revisited.

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PawneeParksDept · 06/10/2018 22:46

You know people went to prison for it right? It wasn't just socially frowned upon. If you were reported for it and it was easily proven you would be charged and sentenced

The Night Watch by Sarah Waters is a good historical fiction about people who went to prison for things that are no longer crimes.

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TheSmallClangerWhistlesAgain · 06/10/2018 22:47

I've always read Charles as what we used to call bi-curious. Sebastian is probably bi, Anthony Blanche is probably gay.

Expanding on what I said before, I think all of the main characters fall in love with an idealised version of each other, rather than the their actual selves.

I'm never sure whether Julia does want to shake off the Church at some point, or whether wishful thinker Charles is a bit of an unreliable narrator.

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thighofrelief · 06/10/2018 22:50

Questionzzz I find A handful of Dust harrowing, if I have the right one - where both her son and lover are called Andrew?

Recently read Gilbert Pinfold by EW - so good.

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dapplegrey · 06/10/2018 22:53

Handful Of Dust is a satire based on the breakdown of Diana's marriage to Bryan Guinness
Pawnee I thought it was based on the break up of his own marriage. I know he didn’t live in a big Victorian house, but then the house the Guinnesses lived in bears no resemblance to Hetton.

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PawneeParksDept · 06/10/2018 22:57

@dapplegrey I understood that it was them because the circumstances of the divorce are exactly alike

Diana treated on Bryan with Oswald Mosley

Bryan then went through with committing a minor indiscretion to take the adultery blame rather than it landing on Diana, not that she cared. It didn't impact her socially hardly at all much as in the book.

They didn't become persona non grata until the war.

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PawneeParksDept · 06/10/2018 22:57

cheated

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questionzzz · 06/10/2018 22:58

@Pawnee- yes, and who was gonna report Lord Sebastian Flyte, son of the Lord Marchmain or whatever his title was? Being a homosexual was a crime, certainly, but "doing homosexuality" was something that people just did
Aristocrats weren't even socially frowned upon!
"Despite a member of the Royal Family rarely having come out publicly as gay or bisexual, many well-known figures lived relatively openly with same-sex partners or lovers".
From: www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/12/19/the-gay-royals-you-arent-taught-school/




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thighofrelief · 06/10/2018 22:59

I love the tension at the end of Lord Marchmain's life when they are all desperate, for their own reasons to see if he will accept the sacraments. A twitch upon the thread - this is what finishes everything between Charles and the whole family when he realises how huge their religion is to them. He doesn't really have a religion himself and feels very much an outsider.

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questionzzz · 06/10/2018 23:00

"Bryan then went through with committing a minor indiscretion to take the adultery blame rather than it landing on Diana, not that she cared. It didn't impact her socially hardly at all much as in the book."

yeah exactly my point. Aristocracy got away with LOT more "bad" sexual behaviour than you give them credit for!

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PawneeParksDept · 06/10/2018 23:02

I think that's naive. Oscar Wilde went to prison for it and he was married with children and a highly successful playwright

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questionzzz · 06/10/2018 23:04

"He doesn't really have a religion himself and feels very much an outsider".
Basically the Flytes have everything Charles yearns for- a strong identity, a glorious artistic house full of art, a family, a mother, a religion, knowing how to live and feel... nevermind that it doesn't do the Flytes any good!

Charles comes across as quite cold, despite his clear love (or "love") for Sebastian. He doesn't really feel hatred, despair, horror, sorrow, that the Flytes, by virtue of their whatever, feel.

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Beeziekn33ze · 06/10/2018 23:05

Interesting and well-informed discussion.
OP's DD's reaction reminded me of a much later drama set in Manchester. It was 1999-2000 and called 'Queer as Folk'. Aidan Gillen was brilliant, and when he encountered a very young Charlie Hunnan there were no holds barred. I was not shocked but admit to being surprised how explicit it was. I was with DS who was early 20s so old enough to be unphased by watching it with his mother! A memorable series.

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questionzzz · 06/10/2018 23:08

Right, and do you know why Oscar Wilde went to prison? He pissed off an even wealthier, more powerful aristocrat. If, for example, Oscar Wilde had been "doing it" with a lower class servant, for example, nobody would have probably batted an eyelid.
Not blaming Wilde at all! I'm just saying, aristocratic families, so long as they maintained minimum discretion, had a free hand in sleeping around. And that's why it's hard to decide if Sebastian and Charles were actually sleeping together or not- It was in their interest to keep ppl guessing!

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