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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to want my money back for this car?

94 replies

flamingofridays · 05/10/2018 14:26

sorry, posting in AIBU as I thought it would get more traffic no pun intended than legal.

I bought a car 6 days ago from a dealer, not a main one like ford or citroen but an independent garage. test drove it, seemed fine, no lights on etc.

We part ex'd my partners car, which was worth more and so we ended up with the new car and some cash (this might be relevant)

anyway, yesterday it broke down. Its an auto and it had a gearbox fault in which it just couldn't select a gear, less than ideal as I got stuck on a junction at rush hour. I pulled over as far as I could roll, and had a look at the manual which basically said get it to a garage. I started it again and it ran so drove it home.

I spoke to the garage this morning who didn't give a shit, and said to speak to their warranty people, now to me a gearbox is a massive issue, and on googling is a common fault for this car, and is v expensive to fix. I told them I didn't want it fixing, I wanted to return it for a refund as per my rights. They said no, as the manager wasn't in until next Thursday. I did however ring the warranty people who said I was well within my rights to return It, but If I want it fixing, get a quote for it and they will pay out up to £500.

I spoke to citizens advice and they told me write a letter to the garage with what I want and my rights, so I have done that and will send it later today.

AIBU to think that they will have to accept this and give me my money back, or am I going to end up in small claims court and having to pull another however many grand out my arse for a new car in the mean time?

has anyone had any experience of this?

thanks!

OP posts:
DogInATent · 09/10/2018 12:10

No, its a fiat punto 1.4 dualogic. Have you had similar problems?

Good luck. A dead Dualogic system killed my last 1.4 Punto (2009 reg), lovely car to drive and when it works the Dualogic gearbox is great. But when it goes wrong it gets expensive to fix - mostly because it's time consuming and usually a next to untraceable electrical fault.

One of the problems is that garages (and drivers) treat it as an automatic - it's not an automatic. It's a normal manual gearbox with a semi-automatic servo system that changes the gears. This is what makes it great to drive (when it works). But I have a suspicion that a lot get badly looked after because they get treated as an automatic. Not all Fiat dealerships will take on repairs of Dualogic systems because they're so different.

If at all possible you want to hand the car back and do not accept a repair. Repairs of these problems are notoriously temporary. Check out the Fiat forum for many tales of problems with the Dualogic.

buscaution · 09/10/2018 12:25

its not as described because it doesn't work! its not of satisfactory quality either (because it doesn't bloody work!) and to be fair its only 7 years old so taking that into account, i would say they should take it back

But it was when you bought it, because it did work.

You need to get legal help to pursue this, nothing you have said is going to worry them into a refund.

I'm a bit confused you say it's an electrical fault, the gearbox is a mechanical issue?

Original poster
flamingofridays · 09/10/2018 12:30

Judashascomeintosomemoney

I didn't know that, we drove it to the garage yesterday but it was about 1 mile away, garage tomorrow is 2 streets away so it would be hard for them to argue we have caused it I think!

I have formally rejected it through letter but they wont accept it until they have verified it is ahem - fucked.

jean yes I think they are, although ive evidence that I rejected it within just over a weeks so I don't know whether that would stand?

yes I guess if we don't get the car, we will just get the 3 grand we essentially paid for this car back, which would be the best scenario I think.

I have had several offers from the lovely (Scary!) men I work with asking if I need them to accompany me to the garage. to be fair, dp is 6ft odd and built like a brick shithouse, so he would probably do! he will be going to their garage tomorrow anyway not me.

OP posts:
buscaution · 09/10/2018 12:33

How many miles has the vehicle done?

Original poster
flamingofridays · 09/10/2018 12:36

hi dog

If at all possible you want to hand the car back and do not accept a repair. Repairs of these problems are notoriously temporary. Check out the Fiat forum for many tales of problems with the Dualogic

I didn't realise it wasn't fully automatic! (in my defense I have only previously owned and driven 1 car which was a citroen ds3 and it never broke so I never had any issues - should have kept it in hindsight!)

I have read the forum and it makes for scary reading which is one of the reasons I want rid of the bloody thing rather than them repairing it.

I said to the guy on the phone that im clearly not benefitting from this, its costing me money, will cost me to change insurance, potentially have to hire a car while I find one to buy and also its got a full tank of fuel which I paid for and wont get back!

But it was when you bought it, because it did work

but that's not really the point is it? you cant knowingly sell someone a dodgy car! I don't think its something that's just gone, its clearly been an ongoing issue which never showed itself on the brief test drive!

You need to get legal help to pursue this, nothing you have said is going to worry them into a refund well I will see a solicitor if it comes to it, I don't see how they can dispute what I am saying to be honest and everyone else has agreed with me except you!

I'm a bit confused you say it's an electrical fault, the gearbox is a mechanical issue? well it is a mechanical issue, yes, but with it being an auto it is something electrical too - I don't bloody know I am just going off what the guy said to me yesterday! its not a normal gearbox (see above probably explained much better than I can!)

OP posts:
Original poster
flamingofridays · 09/10/2018 12:36

about 90k I think!

OP posts:
VenelopeVonSweetz · 09/10/2018 12:45

I hope you get it sorted OP. Nothing worse than car issues.

But please don’t buy a second hand fiat again, they are notoriously awful. I had similar issues with one that lasted me 2 months and had to scrap it!

buscaution · 09/10/2018 12:48

You are going to need legal advice. 90k and 7 years is quite deep into the second hand market, it's not a nearly new or even 3 year old returned after lease car.

The MOT and warranty are not relevant here so no point shouting at the garage about that. I would get proper legal help otherwise, if this garage know their stuff, you could be left with your lemon.

buscaution · 09/10/2018 12:49

but that's not really the point is it? you cant knowingly sell someone a dodgy car! I don't think its something that's just gone, its clearly been an ongoing issue which never showed itself on the brief test drive

I understand that. But it COULD have just gone. That will be their legal position. You need a legal pro.

buscaution · 09/10/2018 12:52

well I will see a solicitor if it comes to it, I don't see how they can dispute what I am saying to be honest and everyone else has agreed with me except you

Ok. I'm not disagreeing to have a go, I'm actually trying to help you by pointing out the legal position that both you and the garage are in.

If you want to go it alone without legal help and shout your rights (which are debatable - legally, not my opinion) then carry on, but yelling that it was MOT the day prior isn't going to win your the case.

DogInATent · 09/10/2018 13:01

I'm a bit confused you say it's an electrical fault, the gearbox is a mechanical issue? well it is a mechanical issue, yes, but with it being an auto it is something electrical too

One of the problems with the Dualogic is that it's controlled electronically. My own suspicion is that in most cases there is no fundamental fault with the gearbox - the engine management system defaults to locking out the Dualogic system whenever it gets a fault it can't diagnose. That most Dualogic users report problems in damp/wet weather suggests that water ingress plays a large part.

But please don’t buy a second hand fiat again, they are notoriously awful.
I've had three over the years, two were great. The only one that died on me was the Dualogic. And the final nail in the coffin was the recovery driver trying to jump start it and letting the magic smoke out of the ECU. Never let anyone try to jump start a modern vehicle.

There is no make of care that doesn't have electronic problems these days. All cars are heavily reliant on the computers that monitor performance and keep them running.

For reliability and running costs, buy whatever the minicab drivers are using.

Original poster
flamingofridays · 09/10/2018 13:07

bus with all due respect I hope you are wrong but I will keep it in mind and shall find a solicitor should I need one!

I will not be buying a fiat again, no!

well round here dog its 13 year old Toyotas!

to be fair I looked at a yaris as well I wish id bought that. they also seem to hold their value better than the fiats.

anyone got any comments on Yaris's? or what I should buy with a budget of about 3 grand give or take maybe 500 quid!

OP posts:
rockchickchickyrock · 09/10/2018 13:14

Flaming if you would like a copy/template of the letter we used for our dealership I would be happy to PM you it. Just shout if I can help

buscaution · 09/10/2018 13:20

with all due respect I hope you are wrong but I will keep it in mind and shall find a solicitor should I need one

In terms of you getting this resolved I hope so too. I just think you need to be pro active with the legal situation in order to achieve that.

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 09/10/2018 13:21

But it COULD have just gone
It could have indeed but within thirty days the buyer can reject it regardless. And at any point during the first six months after purchase, it's the responsibility of the seller to prove the fault wasn't there, not for the buyer to prove that it was. But as Bus has already pointed out the problem, and unhelpfully vague inclusion in the CRA is, this bit ’and that problem is not to be expected based on age or mileage’. IE Is it to be expected in a seven year old Fiat with 90K on the clock? I imagine that is the key issue.

buscaution · 09/10/2018 13:22

One of the problems with the Dualogic is that it's controlled electronically

I am aware. The point I was making was that OP needs to know what her argument is before presenting it.

buscaution · 09/10/2018 13:24

It could have indeed but within thirty days the buyer can reject it regardless.

No, no they can't. The 30 days takes age and mileage into consideration. It's a factor that the garage will try to use to get out of resolving in the OP favour. I'm not saying they would be right, I'm saying OP needs to get some proper advice to present her case.

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 09/10/2018 13:28

Btw something similar happened to DH about 15 years ago. We bought a beautiful Jaguar, seven years old too (can’t remember the mileage) but the gearbox went within the first two weeks. I’d had my mechanic nephew look at it (and the AA) both of whom assured us the problem was not present or predictable at purchase. The consumer rights were a bit different then and the key thing was with that car it definitely was worth repairing. The dealer agreed to pay 50/50 with us and it went on for years (probably still is, somewhere). I can see why you wouldn’t want to accept a repair on the Fiat though.

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 09/10/2018 13:32

No, no they can't.
I was agreeing with you about the mileage and age, I just worded it badly Smile. I agree it’s what the garage will use to not refund. But it’s a bit vague and subjective so that part of the consumer ‘rights’ is a bit toothless as a consumer will probably have to engage legal representation to utilise the act.

DogInATent · 09/10/2018 13:33

anyone got any comments on Yaris's? or what I should buy with a budget of about 3 grand give or take maybe 500 quid!

What size car do you need? Does your driving pattern suit petrol or diesel?

Putting £2.5k-£3.5k and 2013 or later into Autotrader inevitably gives lots of Corsas, some high mileage Pug 208s and Ford Fiestas, some better looking Pug 107s and Ford Kas, a few Citroen C3s (bit of a granny car but the spec is good).

If you don't need such a big car then the Aygo/C1/107 is very decent - same car from three different manufacturers with differences in body styling and spec.

.
I agree with bus that it could be worth taking legal advice (ring CAB), but as you've bought from a dealer it doesn't really matter if it's only just happened - it's happened within a week of you driving off the forecourt so it's within your statutory rights. Have a read on Honest John for full details of your rights.

It's very likely it's happened before with this car and is not a new problem, but the dealer may not be aware. If an owner has had this type of problem the odds are they'll try and trade the car in quick - because a private sale risks selling it to a 6'4" prop forward who may have "views" on being sold a dud. Trade it in and there's no come back. I guarantee I am not the only person reading this that's handed over the keys of a car I'm trading-in to a dealership with a quiet prayer that the car will start first time and run smoothly long enough to get let me get off the forecourt with the new (to me) car!

buscaution · 09/10/2018 14:00

was agreeing with you about the mileage and age, I just worded it badly

And I replied to the first part without reading the rest Blush

Bordercollies · 09/10/2018 15:28

Ive got a citroen c3 auto. 1400cc, 2011 plate with 44000 miles on it. Its fabulous. Has never let me down. The gearbox is really good. Very responsive (unlike the mercedes that i traded for it). Id never had a citroen before but went for one after seeing lots of reviews online saying they were very good automatics. Its got quite a big boot for its size and is a great little car. Dont buy one from any branch of evans halshaw though. They are shocking!

MaxDArnold · 09/10/2018 15:31

You're always going to have problems if you drive an auto. Can you not swap it for a manual?

Bluelady · 09/10/2018 15:44

I've driven automatics for the last ten years and never had a problem. Nobody used to driving an automatic would willingly return to a manual.

Toyota hybrids are great for whoever was asking about the Yaris. I'm on my second Auris hybrid and Toyota have got me for life.

thenightsky · 09/10/2018 16:09

I've driven automatics for the last 30 years and never had a problem apart from one very shitty Honda Jazz that kept trying to kill me by suddenly not being in gear in the middle of roundabouts or pulling away from lights. First and last time I'll go for a CVT style box.