To wish I lived in the Netherlands (or Belgium)

[lucydogz]

A mildly pissed post here, but I'm just coming to the end of a week's holiday in Belgium/ The Netherlands (in Rotterdam tonight) and would love to live here. Are there any downside s that would cheer me up about returning to the UK? The people here just seem to get everything right. Plus no litter and not much graffiti.

I don't say that the ones are and the others aren't, I just know they make jokes about how avaricious the Dutch ares. I think it has something to do with the south being catholic and the north calvinist. I don't know any Belgian landlord (luckily)

Haha! I've loved reading these. I live in NL but have lived in Belgium too. Everyone has said a lot but here's some more;

Belgium:

• AWFUL drivers and driving
• it's dirty and poorly maintained in cities.

Netherlands

• they can be a bit racist against foreigner's.
• health insurance is expensive BUT it's fantastic and so quick.
• Dutch is a little difficult to master but they love it if you try.
• the Dutch are very welcoming people but there is a culture clash if you're not used to their blunt/direct manner and sense of humour.

I love NL and will stay here for a long time. It's definitely different but that difference isn't bad

My children loved Schwarze Peter when we lived in Germany, a red boot outside their bedroom door to be filled with small treats and still over two weeks to Christmas, it was on 5/6 December.
It's odd the things people miss, I used to know a couple of English Mums through the German ballet school and once we got to know each other better I used to get lists of stuff to get them from the NAAFI, usually tea, Bisto and Cheddar cheese.

I've never lived in Belgium, but I have lived in NL.

The Dutch love to slag off foreigners to their face in Dutch.
They are indeed blunt. And if they think they're are good at something, they'll probably tell you. No false modesty there.
They smoke a lot, wherever they can.
The supermarkets don't have as much choice as UK supermarkets.
Streets can be cordoned off for roadworks for months, even years.
There is racism, unfortunately.

That said, I loved cycling past windmills and canals, the museums, the public transport, the quirky independent shops and the grocery vending machines.

yes! vending machines for bread, and pizza!

A dutch friend (from Netherlands) described Belgium as being very Mediterranean if that helps. Belgium has a slower pace than Netherlands: the latter is very similar to the UK. scaryteacher, I also thought most of your list described the UK quite well - it may have been a while since you lived here?

I'm surprised at those saying that the food in Belgium is boring or lacking in variety, as I've always found it an interesting mix of classic dishes and newer trends.

I like the regional variations, North Sea fish casseroles by the coast and river and lake fish further south for example.

I first had ostrich and bison in Belgium, and the game, both wild and farmed is wonderful, who could resist wild boar or fresh quail?

The range of quality and availability of meat (for example veal) is far superior to that in the UK.

(If you miss curry, have you tried any Indonesian food, which is more related to NL colonial past?)

Also I think Belgian chocolate and patisserie are unbeatable.

Lived there for a long time. Basically everything @scaryteacher said!

I have had many enjoyable weekends or holidays in Belgium (beer festivals usually) and the Netherlands (family live there). I'd not move there given elderly relatives here, though can understand the OP liking it there.

Love the beer, Dutch public transport and air quality are very good, also enjoy the spas in the Netherlands.

The places in either country with racism, the parts with low income, and some of the food quirks are the same as in many countries. More people support the Front Nationale or AFD than Geert Wilders lot or Vlaams Brabant (or whatever they are called now). I find that the language issue in Belgium is annoying at times, even though I speak all three languages to some degree.

Personally the place I would choose in either country is Leiden, with Groningen a close second though a bit remote from other places.

Glad you had a good holiday op!

I think Scaryteacher and others on here must be living in a different country to me!

No where is perfect but ...

Flemish is much easier to learn than French if you are English mother tongue.

Why buy Lurpak and artificially fast growing fat chickens pumped full of water when you can buy delicious Belgian unsalted butter from the supermarket and naturally raised small chickens with delicious flavour from your local gibier shop? Yes, they are more expensive, but we just eat them less often!

As for roasts and baked spuds - that's ridiculous - I buy them both almost on a weekly basis!

The bread here is fantastic and generally we have found the range and quality of food across Belgium to be fantastic!

Why should Belgians make good tea when they prefer and excel at coffee?

Yes the driving is hairy but the public transport is excellent and affordable!

And have none of you ever visited the Ardennes or the Pay des Collines where there are, believe it or not, quite substantial hills!?

If you are going to judge a country from the narrow criteria of "well everything isn't exactly the same as at home" then you are bound to find it wanting!

I'm fond of Belgium and I adore the Netherlands.

I've been holidaying in Rotterdam for years and I cry when I have to leave. The market is one of my favourite places and I think the architecture is awesome.

Loved the Netherlands when we lived there. Yes, the 'no piece of meat bigger than a pork chop' thing can be annoying. We solved that by making regular trips to Lille where we would stock up on large lumps of meat (meat cruise sounds so wrong).

Loved the seasonality. Good gawd it's the gourd season! DH loved the seasonal brews from the breweries. Winter, spring, summer, autumn brews. Christmas not starting until after Sinterklaas (rather than September in England). We still get the DCs chocolate letters and I have bought about a ton of chocolate covered kruidnoten (HEMA have an online shop!)

Supermarket choice wasnt great but loved our local butchers and bakers. DCs would be given pieces of cheese, ham, bread as we went round the shops.

Gift wrapping as part of the service in shops and beautifully done no matter the value of the purchase.

Lived where Blathering? I am still in Belgium, have been since 2006, one more year to go til I move back to UK. I always breathe a sigh if relief when I hit the M20 and M25. I'm not dicing with death as I am on the Ring, drivers indicate, leave braking distance, and even cars with Belgian plates drive reasonably.

Car tax in Belgium is based on pollution. It is only expensive if you are polluting more. A 1 liter engine in diesel or petrol will be around 200 euro per year. An electric car is peanuts to tax.

Tax is not 40% for everyone, it's a myth. It is true tax + social security can be 50% if you are above average earner AND also a single person or if you an even higher earner and have dependents. For those on average incomes with 2-4 dependents, the tax burden is significantly lower. Someone with 4 dependents for example can earn 25k gross per year before paying any income tax at all.

There are several perks to a Belgian contract, usually food vouchers at 8-9 euro per day which comes to up to 2000 euro tax free per year, on top of gross salary. Many also get green vouchers to spend on trains, bikes, A rated electrical appliances.

Public transport to work is paid for between 70 and 100% by law.

Extra hospitalization insurance is a common perk. However, even without hospitalization insurance, you can subscribe, if you pay social security, to a health fund for absolutely ZERO per year and this can cover almost all health costs if you stick to official rated "conventionne" and public hospitals. Compared to the NHS, the quality and waiting lists make the NHS look very bad value.

Salaries usually based on 13 or 14 months, not 12 when quoted.

PS the 3 official language of Belgium are DUTCH, French and German.

Flemish is either an adjective to describe things in Flanders, or is the accent of Dutch in the "Flemish" area of east of Belgium. The accent of Dutch in Brussels is Brabantian not Flemish. People who call the Dutch language Flemish are usually unaware of Dutch as a language.

PS no shops or banks close in my part of Brussels at lunch times.
Bureaucracy at municipality is wonderful in my Brussels municipality, the same cannot be said about City of Brussels, so bureaucracy is variable. Choose wisely.

Public transport is super cheap compared to the UK, even if you don't get the 70-100% employer coverage. You can get anywhere in Brussels very easily on public transport and a car is a liability much of the time in Brussels. In Vlaams Brabant which totally surrounds Brussels, public transport is within 500 metres in nearly all places. You have to live somewhere quite isolated in that area to find public transport not accessible. You have to live somewhere quite rural in other provinces too before you find a lack of public transport.

The linguistic divide in Belgium seems to vary, in that in some places they would sooner speak English than French or Dutch depending on where you are. It was apparently the reason why they had no government for over a year.

Aalst very Dutch, for example.

For those looking for the facts on car tax in Belgium, here are the rates. As you can see a car under 1.3 / CV of 7 or less powered by diesel or petrol is under 200 euro for the year, those with big engines that pollute can be over 2k per year. If I were in charge, I'd have those with 3L engines taxed at over 10k not 2k per year, given the harm they do to the environment.
www.mon-assurance-auto.be/taxes/taxe-circulation-auto-belgique.html

We are very aware of the Dutch language (and have Flemish relatives who call themselves Flemish speakers). One of the three official langs is indeed Dutch but if you travel around Dutch-speaking Belgium, you'll find as many different local dialects as you would care to name, which are generally referred to as Flemish. Most speakers will then tell you with pride that their particular dialect can't be understood by other Dutch speakers 30k away!

Totally agree re: financial points. And in addition, no capital gains tax! It is expensive to die in Belgium though!

I have lived in Belgium for 33 years and we also bought a house in the Netherlands 3 years ago as dh works there three days a week. I agree with a lot people are saying both good and bad. I’m in Brussels so we have an amazing choice of food if eating out. Fresh produce in the supermarket is not as good as in the UK though. I love seedless grapes and they are good in the UK and NL but soft here. How come? They are all imported!! When I go to the UK I bring back m and s Sicilian lemon curd, marmite, hummous (as it’s not nice here), potatoes, seedless grapes and occasionally tea. Oh and cheap dettol, cereals and toilettries. I also bring seedless grapes, hummus, cereals and toilettries back from NL too though as Belgium is expensive compared to its neighbours. . Going to the UK And NL, i take bread as it’s so much better here!

The architecture can be amazing (Horta anyone?) and I love the fact that not every house in a road looks the same as most people bought plots of land and built to their own design. I went for a walk in the sunshine this morning and took loads of nice photos of the wonderful buildings.

Car tax can be fairly low (we have a Prius though) but car insurance is horrendous! Tax is dreadful and as dh and I are self employed we don’t get some of the benefits life is talking about above. He worked out that he works (and does around 65 hours a week) until end July before he actually gets any money for himself. I wouldn’t mind but the roads are bad, tunnels are crumbling and the schools are poorly equipped. They seem to be spending the money on the seven layers of government they have here. Public transport in Brussels at least is excellent though and reasonably priced. Everything is more expensive here especially since the pound has gone down against the euro. Our equivalent of NI contributions are higher though they do not cover as much in terms of medical. We have to pay a medical insurance but still don’t get everything back. Even if you go to the cheaper doctors and specialists, you can come out of the pharmacy having paid a small fortune. You con only get over the counter stuff in the pharmacy so that’s another thing I bring back from the UK or NL when required- paracetamol/ibuprofen.

Apart from landlords (I have heard some real horror stories), the Belgians are much humbler than the Dutch and certainly less direct. It can take a long time to make friends with s Belgian or even’make it Into their house but once you are friends you have a friend for life. I don’t know out dutch neighbours as well so m, although they are friendlier upfront, I don’t know what it’s like long term. I speak both french and Dutch though so I think that may help.

But my main reason for keeping away from Belgium if you have school aged children is the school system. After 23 years of it, I was delighted to see the back of it. It is old fashioned, a lot of learning by rote, no encouragement to be creative, no creative subjects in secondary unless you go to a specialist (lower/looked down on) school, you keep up all subjects until you are 18 with very limited options, whether you go up to the next year depend entirely on whether or not your exam marks (taken twice or three times a year) and your test marks (several tests a week) add up to 60% or not. If you fail an exam or two you can retake late August. If you fail those then you start the year again. And this from primary! It’s a very discouraging rather than encouraging system and I hated it (as did my children). Dd was scraping through maths (the level is high and no chance of giving it up) but when she took igcse (she homeschooled for her final two years), she got A*. The school day is long too - when she finished she was going from 8 to 16:30 and then you can have two or three hours of homework. There is also the snobbism (those doing Latin/Greek looking down on those doing economics) and the lack of facilities (in science you watch the teacher do the experiment) and current subjects (no ICT for example). So unless you have the option of putting your dcs in an international school, please don’t bring them part way through their education with romantic ideas of how lovely it will be for them to become bilingual!

The schools are very variable in Belgium from primary upwards. Pre-schools is free from 2.5 years in Belgium, it's 3/4 years in Netherlands. It does lead to more sex equality in the work place and single parents can effectively work with more options for child care.

It's definitely a case of choosing wisely a primary and secondary school. 3 of my children went through the same pre-school/primary school and never did any exams until age 12 in the final year of 10 years, whereas the nearest school to theirs did exams in primary every year. Their primary was also super liberal, I didn't choose it for this reason but glad they ended up there. Secondary is again a case of choosing wisely, there is quite a spectrum, but indeed quite a snob value to the more academic schools, less choice of liberal secondaries than their is at primary level. I've had 2 who love their secondary, 1 who liked his secondary but just had no motivation and felt isolated. I've watched many children attend the same very academic secondary as my 2 still there and right now a girl who is heading for complete fail which could have been predicted from the first week but the parent has not listened to advice and it's really sad, she'll have lost 2 years of education by June 2019 when she'll be off to another school. Academic secondary can be super tough, but with no entrance exams for them, it means many children are asked or forced to leave.

Creative subjects are served in Belgium like in France through music and arts academies. Youngest is around grade 5 standard on flute and music theory after 3 years, financially in the UK that would have only been possible in some areas, it costs me around £70 a year for her flute, music theory and theatre courses at music academy which was free until she turned 12. Downside that the music academy is outside school hours but it's all in one afternoon now. No idea how creative subjects are handled in Netherlands.

butternutbeignet

Flemish is much easier to learn than French if you are English mother tongue.
Might be for you, I gave up after two years, but my French is fine. Flemish is easier if you are German mother tongue, but the syntax is all wrong in Flemish for English speakers. We do not put the verb at the end of the sentence.

Why buy Lurpak and artificially fast growing fat chickens pumped full of water when you can buy delicious Belgian unsalted butter from the supermarket and naturally raised small chickens with delicious flavour from your local gibier shop? Yes, they are more expensive, but we just eat them less often!

I buy Belgian butter to bake with from OKay, but I like Lurpak spreadable for my toast, if that is OK with you? Stonemanor provides.
Local Gibier shop? I don't really want to have to schlep to Woluwe, which would be an hour by the time I had parked. I am advised not to use the butcher in the village nearest to me by the lady who runs the deli and restaurant, and the other one I have used locally is very expensive. I buy Malines chicken or free range from Carrefour. However, the comparable price for a free range chicken which will last more than 1 meal and a sandwich from the butcher I use in Devon is far cheaper than any I have found here.

As for roasts and baked spuds - that's ridiculous - I buy them both almost on a weekly basis!

I like a proper roasting joint with fat on for beef, and fat and crackling for pork. Unless Jack O'Sheas has reopened, I still haven't found an equivalent, hence I buy it in Devon and bring it back.

Yes, you can get large Belgian spuds, and the farineuse can be baked, but I want a proper old potato to bake. I find all Belgian spuds samey
in taste and texture (the exception was ones being sold in OKay which were heritage and had mud on them...then they vanished after a fortnight).

The bread here is fantastic and generally we have found the range and quality of food across Belgium to be fantastic!

The bread can be good, but it depends what and where you buy it, as all bakers are not equal. I use 4 bakers depending on what I want and who produces what. One is better for buns, another always burns the bottom of the bread, another does loaves with spelt and one does fab cherry and almond tarts. The quality of the fruit and veg is variable, and the range is OK, but I am still bored after 13 years of having to go to different supermarkets to get different things.

Why should Belgians make good tea when they prefer and excel at coffee?

Yet in the UK I can get good coffee and tea, why not here. especially as there is a large international population, many of whom will drink tea. Actually the Belgians prefer and excel at beer, but I just can't bring myself to drink a kriek at 1100 when out shopping and needing a drink.

I disagree that Belgian coffee is excellent- it is frequently way too strong (especially if the cafe is using Illy, which isn't Belgian). Thankfully, we can now get cappuccino with frothy milk as opposed to whizzy cream.

Yes the driving is hairy but the public transport is excellent and affordable!
The public transport may be excellent and affordable, but if it isn't going to Dunkirk and the ferry, to do the university run, then it's no bloody good is it? People do go to places that you can't use public transport for, or it is counter productive to do so. It's easier for me to drive to see my db in Mons, than it is to to drive to to the tram terminus, take the tram to Montgomery, take the metro to Centrale, then take the train to Soignes.

And have none of you ever visited the Ardennes or the Pay des Collines where there are, believe it or not, quite substantial hills!?

Yes when ds did his DofE there when he was at BSB, and when we've been down to St Vith to go off roading.

If you are going to judge a country from the narrow criteria of "well everything isn't exactly the same as at home" then you are bound to find it wanting!

I don't think anyone is doing that, but after a while the irritations begin to outweigh the novelty. Dh has been here since 2004, and even he said it was time to leave when we had trailed round 4 shops trying to find a replacement bulb for a strip light in the kitchen without success.

Yes, it's been fine living here but I want to go home. I was lured here on the pretext of it being 4 years only, have been here far longer than that. I want to go into the bank at lunch time; I miss the shops being open on Mondays, though I like the fact that Sunday is Sunday here.

A friend is equally exasperated. He took his car for the CT; it failed on the position of one of the lights. He contacted JLR as the light was supposed to be allowed in all EU countries, and there was a letter from the European body who deals with this confirming it. That however, was not good enough for Belgium who refused to accept this (and is known for being the country who won't), Cost to friend €1500 for new lights. As I said, it's the little irritants that eventually add up.

The level of casual racism in the Netherlands is awful.

Life Tried ING in Tervuren at lunchtime? Shut.

In Vlaams Brabant which totally surrounds Brussels, public transport is within 500 metres in nearly all places Not at my last house - at the current one it is practically on the doorstep, but I still drive.

I like a proper roasting joint with fat on for beef, and fat and crackling for pork. Unless Jack O'Sheas has reopened...

You need to go to Wesley's butcher shop on Place Wappers (Schaerbeek, near Place Jamblinne). It's pretty much filled the gap left when Jack O'Shea's closed.