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AIBU?

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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

To be shocked at the appalling treatment of Rosemary Kennedy?

207 replies

IfyouseeRitaMoreno · 30/09/2018 09:09

And even more shocked that the Kennedys never suffered the consequences for what they did to her (well the father to be more precise).

I’ve just found out about her story and can’t stop being horrified. Sister to JFK, she had minor developmental issues, was considered mentally deficient because she had sexual liaisons (the horror!) as a teenager.

Her father, Joe Kennedy, took her without the consent of either her or her mother, for a secret lobotomy with a physician Dr James Watts. It left her unable to walk or speak. It gets worse...

So then they dump her in various institutions and barely visit her for 20 years. Her siblings tried to make up for it in some way (JFK passed a law to help mental illness and her sister introduced the Special Olympics) but her parents just abandoned her and NOTHING happened to the physicians Watts and Freedman who did this to her knowing the risks. Except of course that they went on to have illustrious successful careers.

I also read that 80% of lobotomies were performed on women which shocks me even more. Why?

Will someone else be shocked and horrified with me? I guess I’m just Shock that they could do this to their daughter, cover it up, and face no reprisals.

[post edited by MNHQ to remove offensive language]

OP posts:
EwItsAHooman · 30/09/2018 12:11

Any whiff of that diagnosis and a women is damned to hell

On a similar note, a lot of women who raise mental health or developmental concerns about their children are accused of FII (fabricated or induced illness). When I first raised concerns about DS I was dismissed and told to spend more time with him, pay him more attention. When I persisted, my own mental health was called into question. I'd recently had a baby and pressure was put on me to go on antidepressants, I was told that I had PND (I didn't) and that my "unfounded" worries about his development were a symptom of this. When I still persisted I was outright asked if I was feeling invisible, overwhelmed by looking after young DC, or if I was seeking an excuse for ineffective parenting. DS' problems were blamed on attention seeking due to me working and having other children, this was noted in his medical records (which I don't think they knew I would get sight of). I was told I had to take a parenting course, not DH, just me. The course covered basics like don't hit your children, it's good to have a basic routine, remember to feed them three meals a day, dress your child appropriately for the weather, and remember to make sure they have a wash and brush their teeth Hmm When DS was eventually diagnosed - autism, anxiety, delayed development, amongst other things - the lead psychiatrist on his case wrote to the agencies previously involved expressing her disgust at how we'd been treated, I don't know exactly what she said but we received a formal written apology not long after.

I know that there are other women in similar situations. A friend of mine was also told she had PND when she said something wasn't right with her 12wk old baby, she too refused antidepressants and her HV made a safeguarding report to SS as she thought my friend was mistreating the baby. Friend was eventually vindicated when he (the baby) seized one night and was rushed to hospital. Turns out he has CP, a heart condition, epilepsy, GERD and CMPA. She had been telling the HV that he was screaming after feeds, vomiting, losing weight, not responding to her in ways she would expect, that he wasn't developing, and that he would turn blue around the edges when crying. The HV's first response was to blame her and then escalate it to SS on the accusation that my friend was somehow causing it Angry

There is a long history of women's health problems being somehow lesser and of women being accused of inventing symptoms.

MNHQ
LilyMumsnet · 30/09/2018 12:16

Hi all

We've had some reports about the language being used in this thread and for that reason, will be going through and removing or editing posts.

We have a blanket ban on offensive terms (like the one being used here) regardless of context, so please do bear this in mind when posting.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 30/09/2018 12:27

Ewits Flowers to you and your DF. Glad you got your diagnoses. I have a DF going through similar, her DC now have a diagnosis but some places are still trying to put it down to her mental health.

Bezalelle · 30/09/2018 12:44

Isn't it a little precious to delete threads for using language that was once medical terminology, and is being used in that context?

Bezalelle · 30/09/2018 12:44

*posts

BishopBrennansArse · 30/09/2018 12:53

There are racial terms that were also used in medical terminology that are also unacceptable. I'd expect those to be deleted too.

Yourenotericlove · 30/09/2018 13:13

Oh FFS.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/09/2018 13:56

lily, this seems like a bit of a weird decision?

You've actually deleted a part of my post in which I discussed how a certain term was, in the past, used to refer to people who have the condition I have.

I think that's actually pretty offensive.

You're deleting a nasty part of history. I know it was nasty, but it happened, and the way that parts of this thread have been deleted actually results in a thread that erases the nastier bits of history.

I really strongly think this shouldn't be acceptable.

Also, I could be wrong, but I think I put the word in question in inverted commas. Couldn't something like that be done? Rather than delete it entirely?

AamdC · 30/09/2018 14:08

Tje point is that the postsr was using the terms as a reference ro terminology that used to be acceptable that word is massivly offensuve now but it was Rosemarys diagnosis at the time wether we like it or not i diddnt find Geraldines post at all offensive i read it in context and im the mother of a child with severe Autism and learning disabilities.

AamdC · 30/09/2018 14:09

Totally agree LRD

EwItsAHooman · 30/09/2018 14:16

It was explained by posters using the term that this was the phrase used back then as a blanket term for difficulties that are nowadays differentiated into various conditions, it was not being used offensively or as an insult and it was also commented that times have moved on for the better.

Given the context of the conversation, I think it's wrong that the posts have been edited or deleted and it stifles the thread to have to skirt around using a particular word. It is a thread about Rosemary Kennedy but also about the wider issue of how mental illness, cognitive dysfunction, and developmental disorders were treated both in the past and now. It makes it very difficult to carry on the discussion when we have to skirt around certain words. There is a world of different between calling someone a "xxxxxx" as a means to insult them and saying that in the past people who presented with certain behaviours would have been written off as "xxxxxx-ed" and these are the awful 'treatments' they were subjected to.

We're not infants, we don't need protecting from "offensive words" when those words are not being used in an offensive way.

BolleauxtoBankers · 30/09/2018 14:19

Hang on, have some posts in this thread been deleted because of the use of a word which was part of the medical lexicon at the time? Really?

AamdC · 30/09/2018 14:24

Yes Bolleaux when i was a student mental health nurse rhe trust i woeked in haf a tiny museum that had patient notes from the 1800,s many patients were refered to as L ..... I wont put the full word as the post might deleted but it is now an offensive word which was a very real diagnosis at the time you just have to reaf it in context

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/09/2018 14:26

Yes, they have, bolleaux.

Part of mine has been deleted, where I pointed out that, even as late as the 1980s, that word was sometimes used to describe people with learning disabilities including dyslexia. I know this, because it was used about my brother, who is dyslexic. It was a blanket term. I wasn't using the term to offend anyone, but because this is an offensive and upsetting historical practice.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/09/2018 14:27

Incidentally, there are a lot of women on MN who find terms like 'miscarriage' or 'incompetent cervix' or 'retained products of conception' to be 'offensive' and upsetting current medical terminology. I know, because we've had threads about it.

Should we also try to discuss current medical terminology without using the terminology itself? Or is it just when the medical community has deigned to update itself that we are no longer allowed to criticise what was said and done?

cloudyweewee · 30/09/2018 14:28

My mum who is 86, recalls how a young woman she knew was put into a local psychiatric hospital by her father because she was 'flighty'.This would have been in the 1940's/50's. She was in there for over 30 years apparently and my mum says it was not uncommon when she was growing up. Truly appalling.

yorkshireyummymummy · 30/09/2018 14:28

If we censor history how will we ever learn?

It’s almost like calling Voldemort ‘ you know who’.
Just because you don’t say it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen ffs.

Yourenotericlove · 30/09/2018 14:31

It's not even a historical practice. It was only 5 years ago that the US supreme court said it should no longer be used.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/09/2018 14:31

Just had a reply from MNHQ saying they have no intention of reconsidering this one at all.

So, apparently, Rosemary Kennedy had a lovely life, was delighted to have a spatula jammed into her brain, really enjoyed being permanently institutionalised, and maintained a great daddy-daughter relationship to the end of her days.

Glad we sorted that one out.

Isn't life so much nicer when we just don't use the nasty words to refer to nasty things? Smile

Yourenotericlove · 30/09/2018 14:32

The term MR that is. Not lobotomy.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/09/2018 14:34

Yep, youre. It's a term a lot of people still see in textbooks. My friend in the US recently posted about her son's teacher using it, without any awareness it could be seen as pejorative.

But, you know, god forbid we mention what the term is, cos that could be really upsetting. Hmm

keiratwiceknightly · 30/09/2018 14:34

Tennessee Williams' sister - also Rose, I think - had a lobotomy and spent her life in an institution too. Similar time period. Ghastly.

EwItsAHooman · 30/09/2018 14:36

But, you know, god forbid we mention what the term is, cos that could be really upsetting

Whereas it's perfectly okay and entirely non-upsetting when it's used on threads such as "tell me about your funniest typos" because when it's used humourously the laughter drives away the offense...

However heaven fucking forbid we should discuss it in on a serious, contextual thread like intelligent adults.

AamdC · 30/09/2018 14:37

Its the context i find offensive not words as such, .