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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to not really understand “TRANS” and all the issues that appear to accompany it.

38 replies

Dazedandconfused1988 · 29/09/2018 17:11

I don’t really know where to start.
I’ve name changed but have been here a while.
I’m fairly young and have been brought up to be tolerant and PC or whatnot and always thought we should just be nice to trans, non binary and genderqueer people (not 100% what the last one means to be honest)
And I just don’t really understand what’s going on. I try and develop an understanding of what’s going on and stuff and what the issues are by looking at threads on here and other bits. (Without making this a TAAT I’ve just been on the Ocado one and I’ve not got a flipping clue) is there anyone who can just give me a basic run down for someone that knows nothing because I would like to be able to understand what people talk about with TERFS not sure what any acronyms mean and all other kinds of stuff.
(This isn’t necessarily me asking for your opinion on if it’s wrong or right or whatnot it’s just me admitting i don’t have a clue what the hell is going on in the world and that google is confusing the duck out of me)

So if anyone can simplify and explain anything about trans stuff to me that would be great because I don’t understand anything other than leaving them to get on with everything because they live lives that are nothing to do with me.
Thanks again hope this makes sense and doesn’t get perceived as goady or anything else.
Thanks

OP posts:
MaisyPops · 29/09/2018 17:13

Go on the feminism board.
Look for the post with links to relevant discussions.
Read them.

There's a lot of new posters and name change posters starting threads claiming not to understand what the issue is.

Dazedandconfused1988 · 29/09/2018 17:19

I’ve been on the feminism boards 🤷‍♀️
I maybe should’ve posted there?
All the threads I’ve seen are proper people who seem to know what they are talking about.
Maybe I will whack out the laptop? I will be able to search properly there.
I just feel like it’s such a big deal for such a lot of people that I as a lady/female whatever should know about it but I don’t
Thanks so much Maisy - I’m happy to divulge my regular UN if it gives me more credibility- I just don’t really get it.

OP posts:
RoboticSealpup · 29/09/2018 17:19

Don't expect to read about it and come out of it feeling enlightened. It's not a coherent philosophy.

TeenTimesTwo · 29/09/2018 17:20

Try the many links from this thread - it seems pretty comprehensive:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3335962-Frequently-Asked-Questions-FAQs-I-have-noticed-here

AvocadosBeforeMortgages · 29/09/2018 17:20

TERF = trans exclusionary radical feminist. They're not nice to trans people.

MN is full of people getting their knickers in a twist over trans issues because of a proposed change in the way people can change their legal gender. At the moment they have to get a Gender Recognition Certificate (intrusive, expensive, lengthy procedure) but the proposal of Self ID would make it a less difficult process.

I don't tend to participate in trans related threads on MN because, like you, I believe in being nice to trans people (shocker, I actually have trans friends) and the threads rapidly degenerate into people suggesting trans people are budding sex offenders, perverts, weirdos or otherwise not fit for even the basic dignity of being referred to by their preferred gender pronoun (he / she). If you are looking for a balanced view, MN is not somewhere you'll find it.

Dazedandconfused1988 · 29/09/2018 17:21

@RoboticSealPup
I thought I understood a fair bit at one point but goodness me I feel like I’m in a foreign country reading some of the stuff ☹️

OP posts:
Dazedandconfused1988 · 29/09/2018 17:25

@teentimestwo thanks so much I will take a look.

@avocadosbeforemortgages great username by the way!
There we are, I understood there was some problem about people identifying themselves and lots of inference to men raping women in female prisons but didn’t understand why.
Makes it slightly clearer. I had been clearly living under a rock as I hadn’t heard about self ID being introduced at all.
Thank you.
I feel like I will just carry on trying to be nice to everyone.
Thanks again

OP posts:
AuntBeastie · 29/09/2018 17:25

MN is not the place to find this information - you won’t get an unbiased view. I would recommend googling. Stonewall is a good place to start.

BlatheringWuther · 29/09/2018 17:33

Stonewall is not unbiased, they are one of the organisations campaigning in favour of trans and telling women to shut up. Look at them by all means at the same time as the feminist boards, but be aware that these are two different sides of an argument. If you're genuine of course.

MaisyPops · 29/09/2018 17:36

Dazedandconfused1988
Teen has posted the link to the thread I mentioned.

It's not about genuine or not OP. Whilst I don't agree with everything on the FWR boards, they seem to be repeatedly targeted with posters (always new poster or a name change claim) saying "oh I don't know anything about any of the issues here. I read some threads but none of it make sense to me. Someone explain to me", then there's some goading and then screenshots are taken out of context by TRAs to prove how apparently MN as a place hates trans people. It's predictable.

Personally, I think the FAQs thread should be pinned on FWR for reference.
MN is not the place to find this information - you won’t get an unbiased view. I would recommend googling. Stonewall is a good place to start.
Neither MN nor stone wall are unbiased. Don't be so disingenuous.

PiperPublickOccurrences · 29/09/2018 17:37

like you, I believe in being nice to trans people

As do all the regular posters on the women's rights boards! Most of the posters there are very inclusive and happy to be nice and accepting of everyone.

But you can be nice to a transwoman and still think its wrong that all a male has to to is put on a dress to get a "woman of the year" award, or perform your smear when you've explicitly said you want a woman.

Transwomen should have their rights respected - no argument. But what about women's rights? What about the rights of my 13 year old to go to guide camp with girls and not get undressed in front of a child with a male body?

Transwomen and transmen should be campaigning for their own spaces not trying to take someone else's.

And you can't change sex. Gender and sex aren't the same thing. Gender is a load of bollocks about boys liking cars and girls wanting to be princesses. We should be encouraging our kids to be comfortable in their own skin and reassuring them that of course girls can be mechanics and of course it's fine that boys play with dolls.

Not that if you're a boy who doesn't conform to the stereotypes the answer is that you're really a girl.

Dazedandconfused1988 · 29/09/2018 17:40

I’m genuine indeed. I’ve been here for a couple of years.
I just wanted to understand a bit more about what the problems were here in particular.
I know trans people, cross dressers, drag queens etc.
I’m a public sector worker and some of our service users fit the trans criteria.

Essentially I had missed the self ID thing and now can see what’s going on a bit better and can see why people are actually arguing instead of just seeing threads where people keep saying “trans people are going to SA / rape me in public loos/prisons/changing rooms” “no they’re not you terf” and so on.
It all makes a bit more sense.

OP posts:
Dazedandconfused1988 · 29/09/2018 17:44

@maisypops I totally agree- no goading intended. And as I said I don’t want to goad but I feel a bit naff at being so clueless
I wasn’t aware that there were lots of others doing this.
I’ve reported the thread you mentioned and begged for it to be stickied because it really did help.
As did finding out self ID is a thing - I can understand why that can be positive and frightening for a range of reasons
Thanks again all

OP posts:
Isitsixoclockalready · 29/09/2018 17:44

It's the incredible amount of labelling that goes on now that I find incredible.

MaisyPops · 29/09/2018 17:46

In which case it depends where you line is.

E.g. for me I have zero issue with trans people having surgery and transitioning to alleviate their dysphoria.
I feel very uncomfortable with being told a boy calling himself a girl should be able to win first place in athletics over a girl.

Different people on the FWR board have different lines. It's not (as some like to present) some homogenous hive mind.

One thing most of us have in common is that self ID enables predatory men to claim they are a woman and that is all they require to gain access to women's spaces. It's actually not really a trans concern. It's a safeguarding concern once anyone can self ID their way into safe spaces.

Aeroflotgirl · 29/09/2018 17:46

TERFS are nice to transpeople, why should we not be; but what we are concerned about is that the worries and concerns surrounding self id, trans and women's safety is being shouted down by the Transactivists. Already there have been incidences where women's safety has been compromised as a result.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/09/sexual-assaults-in-womens-prison-reignite-debate-over-transgender-inmates-karen-white

fairplayforwomen.com/self-identification-erase-women/

TheClitterati · 29/09/2018 17:49

I'm a "TERF" and I'm very nice to trans people. I'm not so keen on the TRA hard core movement who demand we all believe and agree that "trans women are actual women, you know the very same as born females". Cause that is rubbish innit?

I do think we have and need sex separation in certain circumstances, and women only spaces for many many reasons. I value these spaces. And I don't want self defined trans women with penises in those spaces. And I believe, as many transitioned trans women do, that self Id will be open to abuse by men who want to access women only spaces to access vulnerable women and girls / clearly this is already happening all around us.

I do not think my beliefs are hating on trans people. I'm sure TRAs will disagree with me.

Beamur · 29/09/2018 17:51

It is complicated.
As a society, we should be tolerant and inclusive.
The current 'problem' is where trans rights aspirations and existing women's rights are incompatible.
Do some research and critical thinking. MN is often branded anti-trans, but the Feminism board puts forward a lot of arguments that are centered on women as you would expect. Being pro-women does not make you anti-trans.
Trans people themselves have different views on the issues too.

RiverTam · 29/09/2018 17:51

TERF is a slur and will get you deleted on MN, so please don’t use it.

Many women are deeply concerned, because they centre women’s and girls rights and these are being encroached in and eroded. This is happening already, despite the fact that we’ve been told it will never happen, it’s happening before self ID has come in (so the law is being broken right now).

Here’s a few things you might want to ponder, this is by no means an exhaustive list. Before Reading it bear in mind that trans is a very broad umbrella and includes many who have no intention of having surgery or taking hormones and may do nothing more than occasionally cross dress.

Do you think biologocal men should be allowed to compete against women in sports? The majority of sports are single sex because adult males have huge physical advantages over women. How safe do you think women would be playing, for example, rugby if there are adult males playing?

Do you think males who have had no surgery, and thus have a fully functioning penis, should be allowed in places with vulnerable women who are fleeing violent men or have been abused by men in the past, such as refuges or prisons? How can we tell the difference between those with bad intent and those not - we can’t with men which is why they are not allowed, but is there a difference with transwomen?

Do you think that a man who dresses as a woman half the time and doesn’t identify as a woman, but under Stonewall’s definition is trans, should be on a list of notable women in business? Do you think he will have had to deal with the issues that women in business may deal with, such as pregnancy and maternity affecting their careers? Do you think any man who transitioned late will have dealt with these things?

Do you think it’s important for words to have clear definitions, so that we can understand one another?

Do you think laws should be made on the basis of feelings or personal beliefs, or on material objective reality?

If we were talking about race rather than sex would you think the most important thing is to be kind?

Be interested to know what you think!

SlightAggrandising · 29/09/2018 17:51

Women jumping off a cliff and taking other women with them. How fucking depressing.

Aeroflotgirl · 29/09/2018 17:51

I agree with you TheClitterati you, women only spaces will not be safe. Those women who are trans, admit that they are trans as they were not biologically born Female, so are transwomen.

Stanislas · 29/09/2018 17:51

@ppo good post. Helped me to understand.

SadieLancaster · 29/09/2018 17:57

Can I ask - what rights do trans people think they don’t have compared to other people?

Aeroflotgirl · 29/09/2018 17:59

Good post RiverTam Explain the issues, far better than myself.

RiverTam · 29/09/2018 18:07

Thanks Aero, being articulate is not my normal!