AIBU to not really understand “TRANS” and all the issues that appear to accompany it.

[Dazedandconfused1988]

I don’t really know where to start.
I’ve name changed but have been here a while.
I’m fairly young and have been brought up to be tolerant and PC or whatnot and always thought we should just be nice to trans, non binary and genderqueer people (not 100% what the last one means to be honest)
And I just don’t really understand what’s going on. I try and develop an understanding of what’s going on and stuff and what the issues are by looking at threads on here and other bits. (Without making this a TAAT I’ve just been on the Ocado one and I’ve not got a flipping clue) is there anyone who can just give me a basic run down for someone that knows nothing because I would like to be able to understand what people talk about with TERFS not sure what any acronyms mean and all other kinds of stuff.
(This isn’t necessarily me asking for your opinion on if it’s wrong or right or whatnot it’s just me admitting i don’t have a clue what the hell is going on in the world and that google is confusing the duck out of me)

So if anyone can simplify and explain anything about trans stuff to me that would be great because I don’t understand anything other than leaving them to get on with everything because they live lives that are nothing to do with me.
Thanks again hope this makes sense and doesn’t get perceived as goady or anything else.
Thanks

I’m extremely tolerant and inclusive. Ever since I learned about trans people, I have been.

But now that isn’t enough. Now you must completely ignore biology, and not only state that trans women are indistinguishable from other women, but believe it. Personally I am not in favour of any movement that dictates what everyone must believe, especially when the thing they’re insisting you believe is not true.

It wouldn’t be acceptable in any other area. It’s being adopted quickly by major organisations and politics parties without much thought.

I have suffered greatly because I’m a woman, due to conditions that only affect women. I’ve suffered not because of my gender but because of my biology. I won’t be told to believe it doesn’t exist when it does.

That doesn’t mean I believe that trans people should be treated with any less respect than anyone else. I will use whatever pronouns people want. I will not be forced to deny reality.

Some of the acronyms make this all so confusing don't they?

For me this debate is about whether any man can suddenly pronounce himself a woman without difficulty or not.

What makes someone a woman? Is it them wearing a dress and high heels? Is it feeling like you have a feminine spirit or essence? Or is it just biology?

Here lots of us are arguing it's just biology. If you're a woman you might want to wear a dress every day and be 'feminine' but you might only ever wear trousers and drink beer and talk about cars. Likewise if you have male biology it's ok if you cry easily and like wearing pink. No biggie. What does matter, however, is that certain spaces are female only because that makes them largely safe. So if you are in prison or hospital, does it matter that you are only around other women or would you be happy around men too? And even if you're ok with men being around, do you think all other women would be, bearing in mind some women have been raped or can't mix with men in close quarters because of their religion.

No one here hates trans people. But the changes that are being consulted on affect the most vulnerable in society (women). By saying any men can legally declare himself a woman, you're making very very big changes to all of society. At present a man has to go through a certain process to do it so there is at least some gatekeeping.

That's it in a nutshell.

It is complicated. As a society, we should be tolerant and inclusive.The current 'problem' is where trans rights aspirations and existing women's rights are incompatible.

This sums it up for me very well.

The only right that trans people currently don’t have is the right to enforce their personal beliefs on others.

The current movement is doing more than women huge harm. It will end up blowing up in the faces of the people it purports to be helping.

There are a number of issues that intersect OP, one that is very important is free speech. Clearly many women (and men) have genuine concerns about the possibility of self ID and how it could affect women’s rights. I would imagine any sensible person would say it would be totally understandable that women’s groups would like be consulted on this matter and that women would like to get together and discuss and debate online and in real life.

What is very concerning and has ended up radicalizing a lot of quite ordinary Mumsnet users is the wholesale shutting down and silencing of women on this issue. When women (and gender critical men and trans people) are being bullied, harassed and called offensive names such as TERF just for having the temerity of having an opinion or trying to talk about something it is very alarming.

Women have fought long and hard all over the world to gain free speech and we are not about to give it up.

For some reason concerns around self ID have been declared off limits for debate by certain individuals and organizations. NOTHING should be off limits in terms of just open debate. WORDS are being declared dangerous and intimidating, which is kind of ridiculous to most women as almost all of us have been harassed sexually and not just with words. As you can see many of these issues bleed into other areas and they are all issues women care deeply about. We want to retain the power and authority to define ourselves and not be obliged to change the words we use to do so.

most people who advocate “kindness”and think MN is transphobic think that trans only refers to people who are gender dysphoric and actively going through a sex change.

Once people realise that

1- the definition of trans has changed. ( to mean pretty much anyone who doesn’t conform to gender stereotypes)

2- self id is proposed so that anyone atall can just declare they’ve changed gender without any medical or legal gatekeeping

Once you know those two things, the “trans women are women” mantra changes from a statement of support and kindness , to an Orwellian situation that can be abused.

Thank you all! Yes I am beginning to see my understanding of trans and the issues around it are hugely dated.
Thanks again. It’s very interesting

Digggers
Spot on.

Regardless of where people draw their lines on gender and their own personal feminism views, once people realise those 2 things then the view of TRA ideology becomes quite real and concerning.

Hey dazedandconfused

this is a link to another thread that explains the reasons that a lot of women find the current debate quite troubling and difficult.

I think your approach is great by the way - nothing wrong with saying, "hey, I don't understand this thing, and I want to - can someone explain?". More people should do that! I don't think you're goading at all.

I was also brought up to be very tolerant/inclusive/understanding/supportive/supportive of people. What helped me was when I realised that I can be gender critical and still remain true to those values.

I am supportive of the rights of gender non conforming children to be left to work their feelings out in their own time without being told that they've been born in the wrong body and need to take puberty blockers. I'm supportive of girls who have been sexually abused and decide that it is easier to navigate this sexist world if they identify as young men. I'm supportive of young people who are on the autistic spectrum and who read tales of being "born in the wrong body" as being literally true, and who absorb those messages and decide that their bodies are at the root of their discomfort in the world. I am supportive of young lesbians who have the right to only be attracted to female bodies without being told female bodies might have penises. That support does NOT require me to tell any of them that their bodies are wrong, and they need to change them.

Above all, I am supportive of the rights of women and girls to say: NO. No to penises in women's sports, changing rooms, shortlists, Guides and awards. NO.

Thanks @sophoclesthefox really helpful. I appreciate it

I used to be a 'live and let live' brainless wonder until I actually started thinking about these things and realising that actually no, I don't have to agree with this situation. The thought police make me laugh when they come out on this topic because they haven't actually given it an ounce of consideration.

The “lengthy and intrusive” procedure that Self-ID is trying to get rid of before a trans person can be legally recognised as the opposite sex is:

Living as your chosen gender for at 2 years, verified by documentation

Having proof of gender dysphoria from a doctor registered with GMC

Having a declaration from your spouse if you are still married that they’re happy to be in a relationship with you now you’ve fundamentally changed yourself.

www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate

Self ID would take these elements away- you are who you say you are because you said it.

I like to bear in mind that women need 2 doctors to agree before they can have a legal termination of pregnancy.

Or disabled people who must fill out forms and provide proof to be eligible for their own rights in law.

It’s not just trans people who endure intrusive red tape.

no problem, dazed

You can be gender critical and an ally- don’t let anyone tell you it’s either/or.