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AIBU?

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Original poster

to think we were lied to in the referendum?!

49 replies

MyNameIsArthur · 28/09/2018 21:11

Am talking about the 1975 referendum.

In 1975 there was a referendum regarding leaving/staying in the EEC which later became the EU . I was just a child then and dont know what arguments and campaigns there were regarding staying or leaving. Is anyone here old enough to remember?

I wonder if the voters at the time were made aware of the bigger plan of the EEC/EU to move towards closer integration, political and otherwise, and the ultimate objective of federalism. I think that if they were, the result then would have been to leave.

What do you think?

OP posts:
time4chocolate · 28/09/2018 21:21

I too was a small child at the time so it all went over my head. I did come across this article a few days ago which I found quite interesting:
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-36367246

MacosieAsunter · 28/09/2018 21:31

If you don't know what the question was and have no recollection of the debate surrounding it, how can you assert you/we were lied to ?

Bluntness100 · 28/09/2018 21:34

I suspect it was done on the knowledge base at the time.

It's quite odd to assume we were lied to when you don't know what the arguments were. You also have to remember the eu is a living breathing thing, it's not like a plan was made in 75 and that was accurately forecasting fifty years forward Confused

There is a lot of hysteria about Brexit but this is maybe a step too far.

Moussemoose · 28/09/2018 21:37

All the changes to the EU since the 1975 referendum have been negotiated by elected British governments they have been debated in parliament and then voted on by our elected representatives.

Your point is......

YetAnotherThing · 28/09/2018 21:40

Remember this was only 30 years since end WW2. It has been great for peace. People came with a different mindset. Economy was in a bad place (oil crisis etc) too.

With the rise of the far right all over Europe, and UK choosing Brexit, I fear for future peace. A bit off point but I don’t think it’s a view that gets much air time anymore.

Original poster
MyNameIsArthur · 28/09/2018 21:46

Thank you Time4Chocolate that's an interesting article .

OP posts:
BlatheringWuther · 28/09/2018 21:47

There's a whole collection of 1975 EU pamphlets here digital.library.lse.ac.uk/collections/brexit/1975

They're definitely calling it the Common Market. It evolved since, as pp said, with British acceptance.

Original poster
MyNameIsArthur · 28/09/2018 21:48

Voters of the time then, not me, if you want to be pedantic about it

OP posts:
Original poster
MyNameIsArthur · 28/09/2018 21:48

Thank you Blathering

OP posts:
InspectorIkmen · 28/09/2018 21:52

There was no Farage back then - or rather, there was but he hadn't yet found his odious voice. Gove was probably still in nappies. Johnson was still at school having his bottom spanked with a silver backed hairbrush. Social media wasn't a thing - if you wanted news you read a paper or waited for Reginald Bosanquet to read you the headlines at 6pm.
Were we lied to? Not in the way that we now understand the concept of being lied to.

Moussemoose · 28/09/2018 21:52

Yes thanks Blathering some of those leaflets make it very clear closer union was envisioned.

So to answer the OP we were not lied to and many people were very clear a closer union than a Common Market was planned. Excellent.

Original poster
MyNameIsArthur · 28/09/2018 21:55

Is nice to have a question answered without drama

OP posts:
Jason118 · 28/09/2018 22:11

And it's not like the transition has happened without our involvement- we as a country have shaped what it has become. Just because our press hasn't liked it for 40 years doesn't mean it not true, it's our club as wellSmile

Original poster
MyNameIsArthur · 28/09/2018 22:30

I don't see any of the Remain pamphlets mentioning anything about the objective of federalism, or have I missed that?

OP posts:
Moussemoose · 28/09/2018 22:35

The EU doesn't have an objective of Federalism then or now. Why would it be mentioned?

Do you mean subsidiarity? This means only decisions need to be taken centrally are and all other decisions are local. It can be confused with federalism but it isn't.

The leaflet 'A united Europe: A Liberal Vision' is clear about how the EU could progress. No lies there.

DontMakeMeShushYou · 28/09/2018 22:46

In 1975 there was a referendum regarding leaving/staying in the EEC which later became the EU . I wonder if the voters at the time were made aware of the bigger plan of the EEC/EU to move towards closer integration, political and otherwise, and the ultimate objective of federalism.

No of course they weren't. The politicians in charge in 1975 were really sneaky and hid all the crystal balls and made sure all the fortune tellers of Great Britain were on holiday in the Med.

Hmm
Walkingdeadfangirl · 28/09/2018 22:57

Of course we were lied to, that happens in all elections/votes. Its called democracy.

No one was told they were voting for the EU that we now have.

Fortunately we had a few brave politicians that were able to give us another say and we have rejected the EU.

Maybe in another 40 years we can have another vote but for now the UK is going to be FREE.

Jason118 · 28/09/2018 22:59

Yes, free for any other country to plunder - desperate FTA's anyone?

bridgetoc · 28/09/2018 23:04

Both sides lied. In politics it's called campaigning.

Moussemoose · 29/09/2018 08:16

Who lied? The leaflet I referred to talks about the aim of a closer union. The information was there.

If the electorate fail to engage with the information available whose fault is that?

An out right lie would be more along the lines of 350 mil will go the NHS.

Buteo · 29/09/2018 09:04

The 1975 Government pamphlet clearly outlined that the EC was more than just a common market:

OUR PARTNERS IN EUROPE

With Britain, there are nine other members of the Common Market. The others are Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands.

Their combined population is over 250 million.

The Market is one of the biggest concentrations of industrial and trading power in the world. Its has vast resources of skill, experience and inventiveness.

The aims of the Common Market are:

To bring together the peoples of Europe.

To raise living standards and improve working conditions.

To promote growth and boost world trade.

To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.

To help maintain peace and freedom.

www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

Original poster
MyNameIsArthur · 29/09/2018 19:47

Partnership is a rather vague term. I will have to take a closer look at the pamphlets but from what I have seen so far looking at the Remain campaign pamphlets, the emphasis has been on economics and not the political ambitions of the EEC regarding federalism because that is what the project has been about from what I've heard over the past 30 years. If that's what it is about then fine, but I don't think it is what the UK has ever wanted. We probably should have stayed out and remained in EFTA . The point I'm making here is I think the Remain campaign here was economical with the truth about the intended development of the EEC but now Remainers are berating the Leave campaign in the recent referendum for making some overzealous claims . It is likely that campaigns on both sides in both referendums have been misleading in what they have said or not said. Am not saying two wrongs make a right and I think that with something as important as this, everything shoukd be based on fact and perhaps campaign slogans and messages should somehow be audited beforehand!

OP posts:
Moussemoose · 29/09/2018 20:22

You have mentioned 'federalism' before it is obviously an issue for you.

The EU is not federal. Please could you explain your issues and why you think you have been lied to.

It is all well and good accusing people of lies but you have to be very clear why you think you have been lied to when making these very serious accusations.

Federalism - do you think the EU is federal, if so why?

Original poster
MyNameIsArthur · 29/09/2018 20:38

I don't think I've been lied to as I was a child during the 75 referendum. As I said above, I think the Remain campaign were economical with the truth about where the EEC was heading in the future. I think federalism is where the EU wants to head towards. Hasn't that always been the aim?

OP posts:
Buteo · 29/09/2018 20:54

As I said above, I think the Remain campaign were economical with the truth about where the EEC was heading in the future.

It was made clear to the electorate at the time that the EC was more than just a “common market”. The aims of the EC - including the aim of ever closer union between the peoples of Europe - date from the Treaty of Rome. Both Wilson and Heath has made speeches confirming that the EC was more than a trading bloc. It was no secret.