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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think we were lied to in the referendum?!

49 replies

MyNameIsArthur · 28/09/2018 21:11

Am talking about the 1975 referendum.

In 1975 there was a referendum regarding leaving/staying in the EEC which later became the EU . I was just a child then and dont know what arguments and campaigns there were regarding staying or leaving. Is anyone here old enough to remember?

I wonder if the voters at the time were made aware of the bigger plan of the EEC/EU to move towards closer integration, political and otherwise, and the ultimate objective of federalism. I think that if they were, the result then would have been to leave.

What do you think?

OP posts:

Moussemoose · 29/09/2018 21:57

Federalism is a political term with a specific meaning. Do you mean closer union or federalism.

Please explain OP. You started this thread with an agenda. Posters have provided evidence that many people campaigned to remain in the EEC and to work towards closer union. No one lied the information was there.

You have mentioned federalism several times but not explained your issue.

Peregrina · 29/09/2018 22:11

"To bring together the peoples of Europe" may be a rather woolly statement - what exactly did it mean? But it's not like "We send £350 million a week to the EU, let's spend it on the NHS." The first part of the statement being a blatant lie, and the second part something which was not within the powers of the Leave campaign to promise. Which indeed despite pointing this out within 24 hours of the result being declared, it's rather hung round their heads like the dead albatross ever since..

Peregrina · 29/09/2018 22:13

I was old enough to vote, and worked on the Referendum as a poll clerk. Once the vote happened, that was it - I certainly don't recall getting on for 2 1/2 years wrangling about what exactly the vote was about and the country being split. Would this not have been the case if people felt they were lied to?

Original poster

MyNameIsArthur · 29/09/2018 22:24

Why an agenda Mousse? I have explained my issue. I don't need to type it all out again. The ultimate aim is The Federal States of Europe. If Remainers in 75 were honest and said this is the ultimate aim, I think the result would have been to leave. So, okay, it isn't a lie as such, but the truth was economical

OP posts:

Original poster

MyNameIsArthur · 29/09/2018 22:26

It took 41 years for people to get the chance to vote on this issue again Peregrina .

OP posts:

Peregrina · 29/09/2018 22:29

That wasn't the aim in 1975 as far as I recall. Things developed. Thatcher was keen on promoting the Single Market - perhaps can be said to be the architect of it and I don't recall anyone much thinking about it until then. She didn't become PM until 1979 and for the first term proceeded rather cautiously. 'Thatcherism' developed as she went along.

One reason why it wasn't Leave then was because the Press was all for it - including the Mail. Nor did we have rabidly right wing organisations like Cambridge Analytica interfering to rig the results.

Peregrina · 29/09/2018 22:31

It took 41 years, because for most of that time, it wasn't an issue.

Moussemoose · 29/09/2018 22:35

We are not heading towards a United States of Europe. No one has said so now or then.

Your agenda is that you believe Federalism is an unstated aim and that you were lied to. In the 40 years since the first referendum federalism has not been achieved and it is looking less likely as an option.

If in another 40 years if Europeans do move towards a Federal state (unlikely imo) will you claim you were lied to 80 years previously?

The leave campaign (most recent one) told blatant unforgivable lies, they also appealed to the lowest level of dog whistle politics. The remain campaign was badly organised and unconvincing using scare tactics but it was not in the same league in relation to lies and obfuscation.

Harking back to some imagined lie 40 years ago does not make the lies of the recent leave campaign any better.

Moussemoose · 29/09/2018 22:40

It took 41 years for people to get the chance to vote on this issue again Peregrina

No, no and no! The U.K. with its precious sovereignty is a representative democracy. We do not need referenda. The system Brexit supporters hold so dear and wish to retain does not need referenda.

We vote on the issue regularly at GE. All EU treaties have been debated, negotiated by and voted on by our sovereign parliament. This is the system beloved of Brexit supporters.

You want this system of representative democracy untainted by foreign influences so why do you complain about it. Ffs.

Peregrina · 29/09/2018 22:44

Perhaps you would also like to consider OP that in 1975 absolutely no one foresaw the collapse of Communism, the disintegration of the USSR and the reunfication of Germany. When this did happen, Major was a key person, backed by the US, of pushing for the integration of the former Eastern bloc states.

Sorry OP, instead of whining about what might or might not happen in 40/60/80 years time, how about telling your Leaver friends to get themselves sorted out? We have had nearly 2 1/2 years now, and they still haven't got a clue what they want.

Original poster

MyNameIsArthur · 29/09/2018 22:44

Of course it wasn't as far as you recall because the ultimate aim wasn't mentioned. Just loose terms such as "partnership" and "working together" and "closer union" . The ultimate aim was always about federalism even before we joined in 1973. Ted Heath knew that. Much of the media over the past 30 years has talked about this and alot of anti EU sentiment has come about from what the media has said.

I would be happy to have a second referendum though if the results of the recent referendum were rigged because I do believe in democracy.

OP posts:

BoneyBackJefferson · 29/09/2018 22:45

This is the system beloved of Brexit supporters.

Interesting then that according to remainers, a large section of brexiteers voted out as a protest against something that they so dearly love.

I do wish that they would make up their minds.

BoneyBackJefferson · 29/09/2018 22:47

the political parties have lied to us in every campaign and manifesto, and that is OK because the courts have said that they aren't legally binding.

Original poster

MyNameIsArthur · 29/09/2018 23:01

I think you will find Peregrina that apart from ticking the "out" box, leavers have not had a say on what they want. That has been down to the government who do seem to be making a hash of things.In fairness though, am not sure if any other party could do better. It seems like an impossible task now with trying to come up with something that the EU will agree to and our parliament will agree to as well and solving the NI issue. If leavers were asked what deal they want, am sure they would want different things from it because People wanted to leave for different reasons. By the way, it's Remainers who are whining! 😁

OP posts:

Moussemoose · 29/09/2018 23:04

The ultimate aim was always about federalism

Just saying it doesn't make it true. Please provide some evidence.

And it the aim was federalism then 'they' have failed. If they aimed to make a federal Europe 40 years ago they have not done it so no one lied.

The EU is not federal there are no plans to make it so.

Singletomingle · 29/09/2018 23:06

Of course we were lied too. Every single part of politics is based on lies, elections and votes bring out the absolute worst.

Peregrina · 29/09/2018 23:16

You would imagine if the aim had been Federalism, then the original six would have done that pretty quickly. It would be much easier to federate 6 countries than 27 - 28. Maybe the various Benelux agreements could be seen as a rudimentary Federal state? Maybe not though, since Belgium is divided by the language line.

gallicgirl · 29/09/2018 23:24

To the PP who mentioned subsidiarity, it doesn't mean decisions are made centrally, it means decisions are made at the most appropriate level. The UK government likes to think that means at nation state level but it's often at regional level. Also, only certain decision areas are covered by subsidiarity.

The EU really isn't interested in being a federal superstate and many of the other members have a strong national identity and they don't want federalism either.

The UK just doesn't know how to play nicely with other people at the party. 😁

Moussemoose · 30/09/2018 08:22

We are not usually lied to Singletomingle and the lies we do hear can be seen through if the electorate engages. We only get the politicians we deserve. If we don't get involved and leave politics to the politicians this is what happens.

A manifesto is a plan saying this is what we want to do if everything goes ok. Sometimes parties can achieve lots on the manifesto sometimes they can't. Sometimes you have a plan but life happens and you cant do something.

The thing that was shocking about the Brexit campaign was the blatant, obvious lies. They were not speculating inaccurately or glossing the truth the 350 million for NHS claim was a lie pure and simple.

To answer the OP yes we have been lied to - by the Leave campaign during the last referendum.

maxthemartian · 30/09/2018 08:27

Bad faith faux naive OP.

AdmiralJaneway · 30/09/2018 08:35

Interesting question - I can’t remember exactly what my Dad says but he voted leave this time because he very strongly feels that we were lied to last time! He maintains that all he was told is that we were working towards a Common Market - no details of anything else e.g. a closer union etc.

I’ll have to dig out those leaflets mentioned above and have a look. Unfortunately Dad is not one willing to be persuaded that he might be wrong. (AND he’s looking to move to Europe!!! He claims he voted for the benefit of the country not himself.)

ShackUp · 30/09/2018 08:41

Yeah this is not a genuine OP

Barely any MNers we're old enough to vote - or even alive - in 1975.

Yet again, I call St Petersburg.

Moussemoose · 30/09/2018 08:43

No one told or he didn't hear?

If you're not listening and you don't make the effort to hear things you are not being lied to.

Peregrina · 30/09/2018 09:09

leavers have not had a say on what they want.

I can agree with you there OP - despite numerous Leavers on these threads telling me that we voted for a Hard Brexit, this is democracy, what don't you understand? This to my mind, is where Theresa May made a huge mistake - she could have said that the result was close and set up some sort of commission or working group to examine the options thoroughly. I think she'd then have had a decent chance of getting more of the country behind her, and getting an agreement with the rest of the EU. Instead all we see is squabbling.

Barely any MNers we're old enough to vote - or even alive - in 1975.

Quite a lot of us were, we are not all on Gransnet! But probably a majority on MN weren't, but how many really concerned themselves with what the EU did ten years ago? I suspect, not very many.

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