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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Wheelchair user on the bus

409 replies

Penguinpower · 22/09/2018 20:40

Yesterday I was taking my grandmother (in a wheelchair) to hospital on the bus (London bus) and unfortunately it was rush hour as appointment was 9.10

When the bus turned up it was completely rammed and no way we could get on. The bus driver yelled down the bus that people needed to get off to let the wheelchair on and he would give people a ticket so they could get on another bus for free. Unsurprisingly people did not want to do this, a couple of people did but most people ignored and my grandma was uncomfortable with the situation and told the bus driver not to worry. The next bus that came was also rammed and so I called a taxi.

So this is more of a WWYD but do you think people should get off to let wheelchair on or not? I’m in 2 minds as around 10 people would have to get off to let us on and they could then get on other buses easier. As easier for them to squeeze on. However, they have paid for the bus and as it is rush hour they would most likely be heading to work as no one would choose to be on that busy a bus if they didn’t have to be.

My grandma doesn’t think they should have to get off and I think I probably agree but the bus driver obviously thought they should. So what do you think?

OP posts:
AllyMcBeagle · 23/09/2018 00:43

Yes I know you agree, but you are doing so in an “well I can understand why” manner when it comes to the arseholes who refuse to move.

That is definitely not my intention.

My point about the spaces being rarely used was purely that if you had to keep the spaces free just in case a wheelchair user wanted to use it (as several pp have suggested) this would be extremely inefficient. Some buses are already heaving at peak times and it makes much more sense to fill them up with people who are willing to get on on the clear understanding that they might have to get off if necessary to make way for a wheelchair user. I think it would be more frustrating to have lots of buses drive past with 12 currently empty spaces than to get on one for a bit and then get off and wait for the next one, knowing that I am at least closer to my destination than before. In the same way, I don't think it would be at all sensible to say that no able-bodied, non-pregnant etc. person is ever allowed to sit in the priority seats on buses. It makes most sense to let them sit there on the understanding that they will have to offer up the seat if someone who needs to sit boards the bus. Priority seats are incidentally another area where more needs to be done to ensure priority goes to those who need it rather than selfish people, but IMO the answer is clearly not to ban any non-priority bus users from ever sitting in those seats.

And my point about the number of people was that whilst I usually favour the use of utilitarian logic (in basic terms - what is the maximum benefit that can be achieved?) when there are competing interests, it would definitely be overly simplistic and unfair to simply look at the maximum number of potential bus users here. It would ignore the fact that the wheelchair user would always be the one to suffer and it might not even be the best way of maximising bus capacity in any event.

Oh well. I guess that's the first time I've been called "disgusting" by someone who agrees with me...

SpikyCactus · 23/09/2018 00:45

If you're not in a wheelchair get out the fucking wheelchair space
So if you get shoved onto that bit of floor you have to get off? Even if you were on the bus first, and others who got on after you have shuffled to the back so aren’t getting off? Doesn’t seem very fair.

Surely it should be the last people who got on that have to get off? Once all the guaranteed spaces are full the driver should stamp the tickets of the “wheelchair space” people who are only allowed to stay on if there’s no wheelchair.

Hedgehogblues · 23/09/2018 00:52

Getting a taxi for a wheelchair is often a total nightmare. There is ONE taxi that carries wheelchairs in my town so you have to book it ages in advance.

Also disabled people are statistically likely to be more underemployed or earn less than able bodied people so may not even be able to afford a taxi

whywhywhywhywhyyy · 23/09/2018 01:06

If you're stood in the disabled space, you move out of it, even if that means you're having to get off the bus. It's the law.

Anyone other seat and there's no way I'd be moving. May be different in London where bus services are regular, but here it'd be another half an hour minimum before another bus came.

Dollymixture22 · 23/09/2018 01:10

I would get off. I might be a bit annoyed at being late for work, but my annoyance would at overcrowded public transport not the wheelchair user.

MidniteScribbler · 23/09/2018 01:13

My point about the spaces being rarely used was purely that if you had to keep the spaces free just in case a wheelchair user wanted to use it (as several pp have suggested) this would be extremely inefficient. Some buses are already heaving at peak times and it makes much more sense to fill them up with people who are willing to get on on the clear understanding that they might have to get off if necessary to make way for a wheelchair user.

If the bus is so full that the wheelchair space, aisles and every available space is filled up, then the bus is probably over capacity already and the driver should have refused additional passengers. I would suspect that the wheelchair user space is taken into account when considering the maximum capacity of the vehicle.

Fabricwitch · 23/09/2018 01:14

I think the wheelchair user has priority over the wheelchair space, that seems pretty obvious to me.
I'm not sure why 10 people would have needed to get off, but even so it will be easier for them to squeeze into other buses, so I still think you're grandmother would have priority.

HopelesslydevotedtoGu · 23/09/2018 07:15

If people Won't get off to allow a wheelchair user on, then people in wheelchairs won't ever be able to reliably use a London bus during peak hours. They are so busy that you just couldn't rely on one arriving with enough empty space during those hours. People in wheelchairs have to get to work and appointments in a timely manner and they will face this problem every time they try to catch a peak time bus.

Whereas the other passengers will be asked to get off the bus for a wheelchair user once in a blue moon. In the majority of cases they will be able to catch the next bus in 10 mins, or walk, and not be harmed by being a little late. In the rare occurrence that I absolutely had to get that particular bus I would just squeeze down the bus so I was out of the wheelchair space but didn't need to get off myself. I used to work shifts with a fixed start time but occasionally things do happen to make you late, eg if the bus was full, or late, in most cases people build a little leeway into their commute to allow for unexpected events, or their employer accepts occasional lateness.

Black cabs are expensive, you can't assume the wheelchair user can afford to take one to work every day! Individual car will get stuck in traffic congestion.

It's reasonable to stand in the unused wheelchair space as long as you make room or get off if the space is needed by a wheelchair user. London buses are often heaving and overcrowded at peak times so unrealistic to insist on the space being empty all the time, but people do need to vacate it promptly when it is needed.

I'm disappointed by the op's experience as I've mostly seen Londoners be helpful to wheelchair users on buses, vacating the space straight away. Also when I've occasionally travelled with a pram at rush hour (eg hospital appt), passengers have always squeezed along so I can fit the pram into the wheelchair space, it's really disappointing that nobody moved for an actual wheelchair.

London buses don't issue paper tickets, you pay by contactless so the driver wouldn't know who got on last, as some posters suggested. If you absolutely need to be on that bus and are standing, I'd suggest trying to stand in a different area of the bus so you aren't in the way if a person needs the wheelchair space.

What I think the driver should have done is turn off the engine and announce they will drive when the wheelchair user is able to board by approximately 10 people getting off. I've seen drivers do this before when people have refused to pay the fare or are behaving antisocially. It is very effective as suddenly all the passengers are putting pressure on people to comply! It sounds dramatic but I've never seen it take more than three minutes for people to then comply.

Generally I see people behaving really well on London rush hour transport, when I was pregnant people were very willing to make way for me or offer me seats, and even with a pram in rush hour (ill advised and I was fully expecting to have to wait a long time) people budged over to make space. I'm really sad that some people are so inflexible and selfish. I hope it was just an isolated occurrence and not indicative of wider prejudice against disabled people.

BewarePregnancyHormones · 23/09/2018 07:35

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ambostraw · 23/09/2018 08:48

Firstly London is a small part of the country and generally it doesn’t work like that.

Indeed spiky however the OP is in London, talking about London transport, so I believe my comment about London bus fare structure was entirely relevant.

myrtleWilson · 23/09/2018 08:49

Umm, no it isn't beware the space is for disabled people. Equality doesn't mean what you appear to think it means

ambostraw · 23/09/2018 08:50

Every human being is equal, no-one is worth more than anyone else.

It isn't about worth. Can you really not see that?

It's first come, first served. Simple.

But it isn't simple. Because that will always exclude the wheelchair user.

crazycatgal · 23/09/2018 08:53

@myrtleWilson Equality does mean what beware is saying, everyone is equal and it's first come first served. Equity is what you want in regards to keeping a specific wheelchair space free.

myrtleWilson · 23/09/2018 08:58

I've lost my power of congnitive typing this morning!

JacquesHammer · 23/09/2018 08:58

It's first come, first served. Simple

Yes. You are simple. It can’t possibly work like that.

Anyone who stands in a wheelchair space must do so with the explicit intention of moving if the space is required by who it is intended for. If they don’t they’re an arsehole.

Re: the ticket thing, buses in my part of West Yorkshire have been marking tickets if you have to get off to enable you to not need to pay again for over 12 years.

WrongKindOfFace · 23/09/2018 09:04

I’m not sure there is an easy solution to this. It would be impossible for a driver to police who had to get off the bus as passsengers are in a constant state of flux as they move around to allow other passengers on and off, give up a seat for another passenger etc.

Wheelchair space tickets won’t work - the number of passengers changes at every stop so people at stop A would be issued with a wheelchair space ticket, but then 12 people get off at stop B and passengers getting on there would get a standard ticket. But most passengers here (not London) use some form of pass or pre purchased mobile ticket during rush hour so don’t have a physical ticket.

Yes it would be nice if standing passengers were willing to move so a wheelchair user could board (and in my experience people do move if they have somewhere to move to) but in practice if the bus is already at its legal capacity I don’t think the driver is legally obliged to even stop?

WrongKindOfFace · 23/09/2018 09:08

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Gersemi · 23/09/2018 09:15

here is no way I'm risking being late/getting fired just to accommodate a strangers grandmother make her hospital appointment

Then don't stand in wheelchair spaces and the issue won't arise.

BewarePregnancyHormones · 23/09/2018 09:16

@ambostraw So instead of 1 person we should exclude several people from the bus? People who have already paid...?

Gersemi · 23/09/2018 09:17

Every human being is equal, no-one is worth more than anyone else.

In this context, that would mean the wheelchair user having access to the same amount of space on buses as non-disabled people have. Which obviously isn't going to happen. So can you see the problem, Beware?

ambostraw · 23/09/2018 09:20

So instead of 1 person we should exclude several people from the bus? People who have already paid...?

People should just be less cunt and more thoughtful.

JacquesHammer · 23/09/2018 09:23

So instead of 1 person we should exclude several people from the bus? People who have already paid...?

Yes. Because those several people have other options. If you are using the only space on a bus a wheelchair user can use, then yes you bloody well do move.

What happened to basic human kindness?!

SunnySkiesSleepsintheMorning · 23/09/2018 09:24

It’s a wheelchair space!!!!!!

Poloshot · 23/09/2018 09:27

No I don't think they should have priority

JacquesHammer · 23/09/2018 09:28

No I don't think they should have priority

So in a space designed for wheelchair use, someone in a wheelchair shouldn’t have priority?