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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think she's being a right CF?

503 replies

itchybumhole · 17/09/2018 13:50

A bit of background first, and I'll try my best to give all the relevant information, but as I don't know much about the workings of the system I'm unsure what I need to include.

My partner split with his wife 3 years ago after 13 years together and 7 years of marriage. They have an 11 year old child together. Their marriage ended very acrimoniously after a series of infidelities on her part.
When they separated he immediately moved out of the family home with just his personal belongings and stayed with his parents until he could find a rental place. Since leaving he has paid her child maintenance by private agreement on a weekly basis.

She has today received a letter from HRMC saying she needs to repay tens of thousands of pounds in overpaid tax credits. The tax credits were paid to her during the time that he had left the family home. (He's always worked full time. When he left she went on to benefits. She hasn't worked in 13 years apparently).
The notice says that if she claimed as a couple then both parties must repay, so she called him today and said he's liable for half. His answer was... but how can I be? I have receipts for rent paid to my own house. I didn't benefit from this overpayment so why should I pay half back?
We're both so confused. What does he do now? I've told him to call HRMC but he's still smarting from the phone call from his ex wife. We're these benefits claimed fraudulently? And is he liable to repay half as she insists?
Thank you for any help or advice.

OP posts:
HaroldsSocalledBluetits · 17/09/2018 23:40

Like I say, it's not about what's right; it's about trying to lessen the impact on everyone. It will be an awful environment for the child to be in - I mean, really traumatic. It won't be pleasant for the OP and her partner either, to be having to deal with the fallout from a woman at her wits' end.

TheHalfBloodPrincess · 17/09/2018 23:46

A"He's only speculating here, but it looks like HRMC are asking for the tax credits back from the moment my DP moved out."

Are you sure you’re getting the full story? This makes it sound like they were claiming tax credits together before he moved out.

I’d be a bit wary of getting involved tbh.

MissHavershamssis · 17/09/2018 23:48

I say, it's not about what's right; it's about trying to lessen the impact on everyone. It will be an awful environment for the child to be in - I mean, really traumatic. It won't be pleasant for the OP and her partner either, to be having to deal with the fallout from a woman at her wits' end

I'm sorry but frankly bollix. What kind of mother would use her child as a pawn due to money? The only 'awful environment' is the ex-wife's doing - OP's partner has done nothing wrong. No matter how many 'man hater's' such as smurf protest Hmm

itchybumhole · 17/09/2018 23:50

*BestEatenCold
*
I'll do my best to explain our thinking... sorry, have had wine. Confused

We can't be sure, but we think she's being asked to pay back the monies paid for the entire duration since DP moved out. The HRMC know she has a new partner living there now.

She is maintaining to HRMC that he moved in in April 2018, but he's been living there full time for about 20-22 months. My DP has messages from his daughter saying that the BF has moved in and all the discussion, issues that naturally follow.

We think that because she cannot provide PROOF of when the BF moved in that she's just buried her head in the sand, and now HRMC are asking for the full repayment since DP moved out.

Ultimately we don't know though... it's just conjecture. The amount to be repaid is a lot!

OP posts:
VanGoghsDog · 17/09/2018 23:52

People need to stop saying he applied for a loan ON the house. OP has confirmed it was an unsecured loan and he merely used that address. I can't see how that could be fraudulent.
Applying for a loan ON the house, without telling the co owner, and possibly without telling the mortgage company quite likely would.

OP - if nothing else, I'd tell him to formalise his maintenance payments via CMS, or next thing she's going to start saying he's never paid her anything.

itchybumhole · 17/09/2018 23:53

Yes, 100%. They never claimed benefits as a couple when they lived together. He earns too much.

OP posts:
HaroldsSocalledBluetits · 17/09/2018 23:54

Fair enough. I'm just saying what I would do which is to to try to make things easier for everyone including myself, if I could. I'm not a massive fan of everyone being more miserable than they need to be and I'm likewise not a fan of watching children suffer because of adults' messy lives, if any of the adults have the means to prevent it.

VanGoghsDog · 17/09/2018 23:55

The new partner should pay some of the arrears anyway, he's been benefitting from the income and lifestyle.

HaroldsSocalledBluetits · 17/09/2018 23:56

Agree with that, VanGoghs.

MissHavershamssis · 18/09/2018 00:05

HaroldsSocalledBluetits Mon 17-Sep-18 23:54:02
Fair enough. I'm just saying what I would do which is to to try to make things easier for everyone including myself, if I could. I'm not a massive fan of everyone being more miserable than they need to be and I'm likewise not a fan of watching children suffer because of adults' messy lives, if any of the adults have the means to prevent it.

So in your opinion no matter what the reasoning - you go against what is 'right' and pander to an unreasonable person demanding you pay a huge amount of cash that you aren't responsible for? In case the children suffer? This is the emotional blackmail some men have to put up with to see their children - vile women who never put their kids first just to get one over on their ex - disgusting.

OP- you've been really restrained in your replys and I hope everything turns out for the best - it's absolutely not your partner's fault no matter what some 'man haters' with huge chips on their shoulders post

itchybumhole · 18/09/2018 00:10

Thank you Havershan. I thought I'd overstepped the line a few times, so it's nice to hear that you've read my replies and think I've been reasonable.
The messaging continues though. The ex wife says she now will move away to new BF's home town if DP doesn't step up. That would mean a five hour round drive to collect his beloved daughter.

OP posts:
tillytown · 18/09/2018 00:10

He's only speculating here, but it looks like HRMC are asking for the tax credits back from the moment my DP moved out.

They never claimed benefits as a couple when they lived together.

Eh? So they were claiming, but also weren't?

Graphista · 18/09/2018 00:15

"There’s only one CF in this situation, and it isn’t her." Totally agree.

Good men don't fraudulently apply for loans.

Good men don't see the mother of their child struggling due to THEIR cock up and try to avoid helping

Good men are honest - they don't need the truth dragged out of them.

Op you haven't even known him that long, all you know is what he's told you and from the sound of things you've seen a glimpse of a letter from tax credits to her addressed to her with probably the usual Apr-Apr dates on.

I can well understand Hmrc claiming that the loan applied for by HIM claiming that as his address makes it appear he was still living there.

"She told him she was being investigated for benefit fraud and it was all his fault because of the loan debacle.
He said he wouldn't sign anything that wasn't the truth." Again, I absolutely can see this being true.

If he applied for the loan claiming his former address as his current address that COULD WELL have dropped her right in it with ALL benefits agencies. If he wasn't living there but did apply for the loan stating he was living there and that's what she's asking him to sign to say is the case - well it IS the truth isn't it?

Sounds to me as if -

She claimed benefits after he moved out as a single parent which she IS entitled to do. And this ISN'T fraudulent.

HE has FRAUDULENTLY applied for a loan WRONGLY stating that as his permanent address which is understandably causing a shit storm for her, because it now looks like she was lying about him moving out and he's refusing to tell tax credits/benefits agencies the truth - why? It's HIS cock up!

I'd also be wondering what else he's done he's not being honest about!

"and didn't foresee this happening, but ffs." Actually I'm not buying that at all. He KNEW he was acting fraudulently (by lying about his permanent address), it's also well publicised that benefits agencies and tax credits will instigate a fraud proceeding if evidence of a seemingly fraudulent claim comes to light and that means in all likelihood ALL her money has been stopped while they investigate so no doubt she's in dire financial straits and worried sick! Wtf was he thinking?

"From the award period dates on the letter, she was claiming as a single parent whilst the new partner was living at her address." Did you see the full letter to see if he was part of the claim? Dates alone mean NOTHING wrt new partner moving in, if he doesn't work or is a low earner they may well have still been entitled to tax credits but your partner earns enough such that if they believe he's living there she wouldn't be eligible. But then I suspect you're trying to deflect from your partners massively selfish cock up with that post!

HuskyLover - you need to read the thread, do you not understand it's because it makes it look like the husband was still living there at the time the loan was applied for? Also the loan was applied for fraudulently (I suspect that's why op's partner not wanting to stick his head above the parapet)

"If HMRC say that he was living there because of the loan, then all he needs to do is prove that he wasn't." Exactly - but there may be a reason he doesn't want to do this - that's what could be dodgy. I'm wondering if he's had or tried to get other loans on that address. He could get in a lot of trouble for that.

There's

Child tax credits - which I think replaced the child elements of things like jsa. Eligibility relates to age and dob of children, employment status of adults in the household (but her having a working partner doesn't necessarily make them ineligible). Employed and unemployed people can be eligible.

Working tax credits - initially childcare tax credit was separate but looking now I see they're done as part of working tax credits now? It's been a long time since I claimed these. Eligibility means tested but basically must be working 30 hours per week for adults with no dependants/issues and 16 hours a week for parents/disabled and other issues.

Whether the letter refers to working tax credits or child tax credits it'll just say 'tax credits'

"He says she sells MLM skincare products on eBay. So that's employment?" Fuck me!! You really don't like her and are determined to help your partner wriggle out of his responsibilities! she can sell stuff without it affecting tax credits or any other benefits providing the amount she makes stays under a fairly significant amount! In other words occasionally selling something on eBay is basically irrelevant.

Even under data protection etc - THEY can't tell him anything but HE can tell THEM information that might affect the investigation into her ie that he'd moved out but stupidly took a loan out claiming he was still living there.

Child maintenance is not included for benefits or tax credits calculations. It used to be a long time ago but because too many nrps don't pay consistently children were ending up in serious poverty so the rules were changed.

"she can't have lied about it? you're very naïve. HMRC might well have told her about the loan, all she had to do was send him a message saying hi EX DP, HMRC think you were living here on x date because you applied for x loan, please can you send me a utility bill / rent agreement to cover this date?" He could be lying too. There could be a raft of debt he's run up against his old address. He could be lying to op about what ex said.

"And how would HMRC even know about the loan? It's not income one has to declare." That's been explained. Basically cross referencing software applied to credit records.

"So should he still have informed the benefits agencies he was leaving? Even though he'd never tried to claim anything?" No but he ALSO shouldn't be signing LEGAL DOCUMENTS in which he FALSELY claimed he was still living there! ESPECIALLY as he likely knew she needed to claim benefits in order to provide for THEIR child!!

"If the the ex's address was used for a loan then she would have known about it, as that's where the mail would have been sent." The loan was declined so no paperwork would've been sent. Plus Most transactions are paperless now. If the application paperwork was signed by the op's partner in person and then the contract sent by email - it would've been entirely possible for nothing to be sent by post OR that he was having his mail going to that address redirected.

Being a victim of abuse, doesn't mean he's incapable of lying.

Being mentally ill doesn't either. Sometimes being mentally ill can mean people try to or do get credit, spend more than is sensible etc. It's a big problem for the mentally ill. I've been mentally ill for several years, at one point ending up with a credit card I have absolutely no recollection of applying for! Be prepared to discover he has a lot of debt from this time in his life.

I would strongly advise against moving in with this man until you have proof of his financial status. I don't mean don't move in with him if he has debt, most people have debt, but you need to KNOW he's being honest.

Also yea, 'crazy, lazy, benefit scrounging ex who cheated on me' said almost every man with an ex!

Also you've only been together 10 months both have DC and are talking him moving in soon?!

"I don't talk to his father in law. He does, by text. I've seen some of the texts." You do know it's really easy to send texts to yourself that look as if they've come from elsewhere yea?

"Of course Op will come back and say she’s been claiming benefits fraudulently the whole time, as that paints her dp as she wants us all to see him. Doesn’t mean it’s the truth. I’d stake my new loan in ops address on that." I'm similarly sceptical of that update.

funinthesun18 · 18/09/2018 00:16

So she claimed as a single parent when really she had a partner living with her.

That is her ex’s problem how exactly? She can’t just pull the “but you’re the father of my children” card when she wants him to do something. She should be an adult and deal with it herself. Maybe ask her partner to help her out instead.

If the shoe was on the other foot I can guarantee you now she would not help you. You would be told it’s not her problem. It works both ways!

itchybumhole · 18/09/2018 00:16

Yes Tilly. They never claimed as a couple when living together. She put in a claim when DP left. Now because she's not prepared to prove when the new boyfriend moved in (because it would prove she lied) they want the whole sum back.

OP posts:
DoJo · 18/09/2018 00:17

Eh? So they were claiming, but also weren't?

I think OP means that the ex started claiming as soon as Mr Itchy moved out and was awarded tax credits, but HMRC now believes that either he didn't move out then, or that the current boyfriend moved straight in and that the ex should never have made a claim.

itchybumhole · 18/09/2018 00:22

The interesting thing... and a little drip feed (sorry!) is that I DO know this man. I've known him for 16/17 years. We had a little fling before he married her and I married my husband. We were social media friends, but didn't ever really talk whilst we were both married. We believed in our individual vows, so why chat to a former fling?.
When we both became single again, after a couple of years alone respectively, we reignited our relationship. I KNOW him. We have friends in common, and we come from the same town. I know his so very well.

OP posts:
sliceofcheese · 18/09/2018 00:22

It looks like she claimed tax credits as a single parent from the second your DP moved out. It also appears she didn't change her claim when her new partner moved in, this committing fraud.

The loan triggered an investigation because they had a loan application in your DPs name at a time he was supposed to be moved out.

He can provide proof of when he moved out thus making her a single parent. I'd advise that he does this as it will ensure he isn't implicated and also provides evidence that the original claim was not fraudulent. This should reduce the amount owed.

The onus is then in her and her current partner to prove when he moved in and repay any money owed from not declaring it.

However it Sounds like she's hoping she can threaten him and force him to pay for her fraud because she's blaming him. She won't take responsibility and just sees it as he "shopped her" because his loan triggered the investigation.

sliceofcheese · 18/09/2018 00:27

He did fuck up with the loan app BUT if she hadn't committed fraud it would have been easily probable that he was living elsewhere with his meticulous records.

She's the one most in the wrong here. He made a small lapse of judgement based on past circumstances (ie being back in the house usually after a few weeks) She failed to declare a massive change in circumstances for almost 2 years.

MissHavershamssis · 18/09/2018 00:44

*Graphista Tue 18-Sep-18 00:15:42
"There’s only one CF in this situation, and it isn’t her." Totally agree.

Good men don't fraudulently apply for loans. *He didn't fraudulently apply - he owned the home and applied.

Good men don't see the mother of their child struggling due to THEIR cock up and try to avoid helping He didn't cock up - he legally applied for a loan on his house. And fuck off 'the mother struggling to to their cock up- how many years later are the 'GOOD MEN' meant to provide for the 'mother of their child'? - How about the mother doesn't need a bloke to 'provide??' Disgusting how some women use men as a cash cow = this parent isn't. He provides for his child both financially and physically - should be be a mug applying for a loan on HIS house? Naaah - god, such bitter, horrible women - instead of taking it out of the innocent OP's OH, take a look at your own relationship if you value yourself so unworthy - bah.

Good men are honest - they don't need the truth dragged out of them.*

HeebieJeebies456 · 18/09/2018 00:44

The ex wife says she now will move away to new BF's home town if DP doesn't step up

The only step he should be taking is a Prohibited Steps Order to prevent her carrying out her threat.
He also needs to legally divorce her, formalise CM payments and make a clean break.
she was and still is abusive towards him and he needs to deal with it properly

Cornishclio · 18/09/2018 00:51

The issue over the loan and investigation for fraud are two very separate things. If your DP moved out and his ex put in a claim for tax credits as she had no other regular income then presumably she was entitled to them as a single parent. If your DP provides proof of moving out like his letting agreement etc that should clarify her status. Applying for the loan stating his address as the family home was daft and very possibly fraudulent but it should not affect exes entitlement to tax credits.

Of course if a new partner moved in this will affect her claim and presumably this is why she is being investigated. Nothing to do with your DP though and vile of her to blackmail him by saying she will move away if he doesn't stump up half. Why doesn't the new BF pay as presumably he also benefitted from these tax credits?

MissHavershamssis · 18/09/2018 00:51

*HeebieJeebies456 Tue 18-Sep-18 00:44:34
The ex wife says she now will move away to new BF's home town if DP doesn't step up

The only step he should be taking is a Prohibited Steps Order to prevent her carrying out her threat.
He also needs to legally divorce her, formalise CM payments and make a clean break.*

she was and still is abusive towards him and he needs to deal with it properly

And now we have threats to take away sons/daughters - Gosh they're are some vile people - thankfully most can see how unreasonable smurf and the like are

theworldistoosmall · 18/09/2018 01:03

Oh, come on. How can a loan application made over 2 years ago trigger an investigation now?
It won't.

When I was investigated, it was something that happened in that payment cycle that triggered an investigation. This then caused them to look into the history of the claim. They would not have sat on their asses for the past couple of years watching and investigating her. She will be aware of that loan and every single piece of evidence they have gathered since because they would have told her the names of the ex and her new man.

But this still would NOT make him in any responsible for subsequent overpayments. This is her own doing. If she hadn't tried to fuck over the system she wouldn't be facing this now.

He can help her to an extent and show that he was living elsewhere. But the rest and her new man, not his problem. That's between her and her man to deal with and payback.

nailak · 18/09/2018 01:05

Normally they send 2 letters. One addressed to each partner. We always get 2 copies of every thing.

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