AIBU to push DD

[Jemimafuckingpuddleduck]

Don’t often post on here but could really do with some constructive advice on how to handle a situation with my eldest DD which is really upsetting me and causing quite a bit of worry.

DD is very creatively bright but isn’t necessarily as academically “clever” as her siblings. This is absolutely fine with us and we have always pushed and encouraged her where her strengths are which is art, creative writing, music. (we have said the moment she was born that she was so to be on stage)

She has had issues with attention and concentration in the past, enough so for a GP to want to refer her but we decided to manage it at home and liasing with the school so we both used the same approach and coping mechanisms..

This was a good few years ago and although she can still be a bit ditzy at times, has as she got older seemed to grow out/improved massively where her attention issues were and last year was the best school report she has had as well as doing really well in her SATS.

Around the time her attention and concentration was at its lowest she became interested in a musical instrument and we paid and still do for private lessons once a week..

This instrument and hobby has not only been the best thing that could have happened to her confidence and creative wise but I also believe was one of the key components in helping her concetration issues! She also (very proud mum) is insanely good at it and now at age 11 is near to sitting her grade 3.

Due to various reasons over the 3 years that she has done it, has had various teachers, some older some younger, definitely a few that were a better fit for but we have alsways muddled through and I have always been open to changing tutors if she isn’t happy with one she has.

Since starting high school a few weeks ago, her attitude to everything has changed, totally understandable and I’m deffo happy to have a settling in period where I’m very carefully biting my tongue, she doesn’t seem to want to do anything if it’s not something her friends are doing,

“We tried that club/group but we didn’t like it so now we are going to go to that one because we think we will like it better”

I’m struggling with how a group of 5 kids say can all have exactly the same thoughts, ideas and likes as each other and if I’m honest a little disappointed that she is not following her own lead a bit more and using her brain to make her mind up for herself as that’s how I have raised her!! She is very happy at secondary and I’m being very careful as that obviously is my main priority!

At home however all she wants to do is sit on her phone talk to her friends that she has spoke to all day and go out to play which is fine to an extent but she seems to have lost any motivation to do anything productive which for the last few weeks has involved her musical instrument..

It’s been a bone of contention over the last few weeks and if I’m honest knew what was coming but a week ago had confided in her dad that she doesn’t want to do musical instrument any more as she is not enjoying it and would rather just play for fun rather than go through formal lessons and grades, her dad has (a whole other thread) agreed with her and said push through her grade 3 and then have a break from lessons! I’m absolutely devastated for so many reasons that she has chosen to do this. Husband has said that we shouldnt push her as he was pushed to do a sport when he was younger and he hated it and I do get the reasoning but I think that DD situation is different because she a) so good at it and b) it’s such a good tool and outlet for her c) don’t necessarily think it’s something in 5 years that you can say, had a break going to pick it back up and I genuinely think she will live to regret it!

This has escalated to quite a rift between DH and I as we just think so differently about it, he thinks she is reaching out to him as she must have been so unhappy and it would be wrong to not listen to her and let her choose her own path where as I think she has got him wrapped round her little finger and basically is rubbing her hands that she has all the time in the world to sit on her phone, hang out with her pals and basically do fuck all! I also think it could be quite possibly the biggest mistake she will make in her childhood life.

What do I do? My family are all very she needs to be pushed, my sister teaches music and musical theatre and had a chat with her last night regarding not giving up on things just because they are hard or boring for a while and my mum does stamps for all her GC which equate into points and then pocket money/treats and that’s always been a great incentive in the past but if these things are not enough to hopefully reconsider, I think it’s just going to come down to battle and more arguments between DH and I.

Would love some outside POV or and comforting words for anyone that has been through or had a child similar?

Well I think it's great she's good at the instrument but it's clearly not going to be a career for her - it's something to increase her confidence and to enjoy.

If you think she's spending too much time on her screen - I would tackle that. Maybe phone has to go away by X o clock every evening. When she's not staring at a screen you may find she naturally picks up the instrument or she may be interested in something else entirely.

I would probably encourage her to continue her lessons until the end of term - with no focus on grades just fun pieces she enjoys and see how it goes.

Some posters seem a little harsh in terms of knocking the child's achievement in this instrument. The outcome in improved concentration will have great benefits in her ability to access learning. Surely this is a good thing regardless of age v. grade level. If she doesn't want to do exams, fine. Agree it entirely depends on what the instrument is for advice in next possible steps.

I think your DH has responded quite well by setting a compromise of working towards exam before giving up lessons.

Your worry is she might simply be giving up because it's hard work. If this IS the case then that is a life lesson she must learn for herself. However it may also be the case that she simply doesn't have a passion, and a career in the arts is reliant on passion to keep going. There will be other things she enjoys and is good at.

This is the time you need to practise letting go of your daughter and loosening the reigns. It is difficult but it is the nature of parenting and will be harder in the long run on both of you if you don't, not to mention or relationship with you DH.

If she says she wants to play for fun then let her!

At school I was in a friendship group of 3. We decided to choose 1 extra curricular club each and the other two friends would agree to attend. Our parents got together and supported the plan. So for example my sporty friend chose netball, I chose choir and my other friend chose outdoor stuff. My sporty friend wasn't much of a singer but she attended choir with me so that we could enjoy it more, and likewise me with netball club.

On the flip side my parents also forced me to continue piano lessons long after I had begged to stop. Their arguments sounded much like yours and centred on their expectations of me, and their projections of what I would regret.. in the end I skived off the lessons for nearly a term and their money went to waste. I am now put off piano playing for life.

You do sound pushy op. I mean this kindly but the kind of intensity even in your post feels overbearing.

Your dd is 11, she can choose her own hobbies. If she drops it and regrets it she can restart. No harm done.

Forcing an instrument/a sport/hobby on any child is really poor form as they get older. She will grow to hate music and resent you for making her go.

At this age it is all about the friendship and fitting in. Go with it but limit her screen time just a little, and see if there is anything else she would like to try. Stop pushing. The pressure on kids causes MH issues.

I agree with PP about setting phone limits.
I think you need to get your mum and sister to back off a bit as it must feel overwhelming to have 3 adult women all pushing you in one direction when you are still trying to find out who you are and what you are interested in. I’m not surprised she has turned to her dad for some support. Maybe fewer ‘ditzy’ comments and more listening to what she really wants would help. It’s time she learnt how to make decisions for herself and your job is to help her learn how, and not to make the decisions for her.

I have a son who struggles with concentration. I think he's borderline ADHD.
I also have the dilemma of whether or not to push him because left to his own devices he would fritter away all his time on nonsense.

He plays piano, is reasonably good at it but has to be reminded to practise and practise well. He would happily stop tomorrow because then he could spend his time messing about with his rubiks cubes. But I feel it's good for his concentration.

It's different from his siblings, they don't have the same concentration issues so make more sensible choices I think.

I don't have any answers but I do understand your problem.

I agree with you that it may not be wise for her to give up the instrument. What I don't agree with is the motives behind your pushing in her case. I agree with a PP that you sound very hung up on her having to be very good at something, perhaps to 'compensate' for her relative lack of academic prowess? I do know where there sorts of ideas come from - I have one academic and one less academic child myself and I would like the less academic one to be very good at something so he has 'his' thing (he has stuff he's good at but no blindingly brilliant talent so far) but they're about us, not them. Talent comes in many shapes and forms, and the stuff children are typically pushed to develop talents in tend to be only a very small proportion of the whole. I agree with the self-declared high achiever above about the importance of being able to work with pepple (though not sure it necessitates giving up an instrument...).

The trying out lots of after school clubs and only wanting to do the ones your friends are is pretty normal. Hopefully he will find one she likes.

I agree with not pushing her through music grades. My DS has moved from grade to grade to grade and has got to the point where the instrument is no fun any more. I've suggested that he needs some time just to play music for enjoyment - if he wants to he can always move back onto the grades in the future. He is, however, carrying on with lessons and hopefully he will be improving even if not working towards grades!

Are there any music groups she can join at school? She would be welcomed into my DC's school orchestra with open arms -even though piano is not a standard orchestral instrument!

If she’s a sociable child do you think learning an instrument she can play in a group might be a compromise? Piano is a pretty solitary thing. You can’t play in an orchestra or ensemble unless you are up to solo standard or are able to accompany other instrumentalists/singers.

It does sound like she wants something she can have fun doing rather than serious grade type tuition. Music is great for concentration/teamwork/listening skills as well as helping with maths and other subjects. I think it might be a shame for her to give up totally and maybe a chat about whether there is any other instrument she would like to learn, might be an idea.

I think that all the angst about musical ability/grades seems to be ignoring the elephant in the room which is your DD's underlying concentration issues (ADHD?) and whether she needs more formal support than being pushed (forced?) into music lessons.

You seem to come from a very musical family and I fear that they are not being objective about this as they expect everyone to love it as much as they do. Your DD probably knows that she is merely average at music and is not enjoying the lessons. Your DH is right - she will probably hate it if you keep pushing this.

You seem to regard your DD's lack of academic brilliance as a disappointment and consequently have been keen to relabel her as the "creative, musical one" in the family. Your DD probably realises this especially with the way you are pushing music and grades despite her own lack of enjoyment. There is also puberty coming where friendship groups will become a lot more important than pleasing mum by taking grade 3! Have you spoken to her about whether there is something else she would like to try? She is now old enough to be choosing her own interests - but remember that these are hobbies and meant to be fun.

I have a DD who is diagnosed with ASD/ADHD and she took medication between age 8 and 14. At 14 she decided herself that she didn't want to take it anymore but it helped her through a really difficult time. She was a good skater and got to the level of training 5 times a week and getting her licence to compete at regional level - but at age 13 she just didn't want to do it anymore - it wasn't fun she was stressed with schoolwork. She did drift for a while but then joined a youth group and began writing for their monthly newspaper (stunning to us as she could barely write until she was 10). But all of these were hobbies not a future career.

if I’m honest a little disappointed that she is not following her own lead a bit more and using her brain to make her mind up for herself as that’s how I have raised her!

Probably an unpopular view but I think you missed a bit out of that - it should read 'Make her mind up for herself and do what I want her to do as that's how I've raised her.

She's making her own mind up about the music lessons and you don't seem very happy about that. For waht it's worth, I had a mum who started by claiming she was nurturing my musical talent when I was 5 and used to tinker round on my gran's piano. I started having lessons and got to Grade 6 when I was 12. I wasn't enjoying the theory element and the exams, I just wanted to play for the love of music. Mum was devastated because she wanted to be able to brag to her friends and neighbours that I was more advanced and more talented than their offspring. I stopped going to lessons and tried to carry on playing at home but if I touched the piano, mum would start her nagging about 'the waste of talent'. Upshot was I stopped playing, pulled out of all the school music groups and 3 choirs I'd been in. And never went back to active participation. Never. Ever. I may or may not have gone on to return to classes after a break. I may or may not have gone on to have a career in music. But my mum pushing me to do what she wanted killed any chance stone dead. Sadly, your post reminds me of her.

Forgot to say I flipping hated doing grades. I found them boring and tedious and if I’d been allowed to learn for pleasure rather than achievement, I’d probably not have thrown in the towel completely. I also found it tough as older brother was very talented and got a scholarship to the Royal Northern College of Music. I think it was expected that while I wasn’t going to be as good, I would still make music my career. Which was ridiculous as I didn’t have the ability, personality or the determination needed.

It is a shame when this happens OP, you need to decide if your dd just needs encouragement and support to continue practising, then when she has progressed maybe she'll be happy to continue.
Piano is a lonely instrument and some are put off because they can't join ensembles or orchestras.
Perhaps offer a second instrument when/if she reaches grade 5.
working towards grade 3 at 11 isn't exceptional, as grade 8 at 8 is the norm for exceptional students.
But exams do not make the musician, there are plenty with grade 8 who have learned how to operate an instrument, the two are totally different.

Secondary school is a big thing, lots of change and getting used to new routines. Musical instruments can be, at this age, seen as getting in the way of exciting stuff. I would take the view that she’s enjoyed playing up to now, but just at the moment maybe sees it as getting in the way of phone time. So, personally, I would pressurise. I would explain carefully why I wanted her to continue, let her say why she wants to give up, and say I would be prepared to compromise. So, if she continues for another eg, term, and after that she still wants to give up, then you will agree. I think learning a musical instrument is a great thing for a child to do - it’s meant to be one of the few things that can actually increase intelligence. In a child with focus issues, it’s extremely helpful. And not learning a musical instrument is something that crops up as the one thing that most adults regret.

I also agree with your DH, as frustrating as that is.

My DD who seems to be a natural swimmer and wants to be a deep-sea diver when she grew up, quit formal swimming lessons earlier this year. My exH has convinced her that a better career path is to become a ninja so she has taken up a martial art.

I am incredibly disappointed - she showed so much promise in the pool, it's linked with her career aspirations and its a life skill, in my opinion. However, she has learnt to swim which ticks that last box, so as much as it's pained me, she is now signed up to taekwondo (which she is absolutely loving!).

I am looking at it that she can return to swimming if she needed to, it's something she can do socially - which your DD sounds like she's up for - and if she does decide that ninja is a bust (uhm, yes!), I am hopeful that once the desire is back, she will excel.

It's incredibly tough though but it is ultimately her decision. I have only come to this through some horrible introspection (very much pushing my ideals onto my DC when they really need to choose their own path) but it is so so hard watching them decide against something you see as a real positive in their life.

Completely understand how you feel. It's such a shame when kids want to give up on things that they are good at. Having said that, you can't make her do it - you can't actually push her into practicing etc and even if you did succeed, it wouldn't work out and she will start to hate it/resent you. There is no way a reluctant child will change their mind and suddenly start enjoying it again. Sadly I think you need to let it go. In a very similar situation myself.

Taking music exams is completely unnecessary and often counterproductive, in my experience. I am a classical musician and so are two of our kids as well as my husband, and none of my friends (performers and teachers) did grades. I find the whole system a bit joyless and unhelpfully school-ey.

I think that your daughter having had so many different teachers seems unsettling. If I were you, I might try to find a teacher who doesn't encourage grades, but works in some different ways, including teaching kids to improvise a bit and play more by ear... maybe a teacher who also does vocal coaching would take an interest in a child who wants to sing and play?

If your DD really loves and has talent in something, then even taking a break for a bit will not wreck her future.
My DD at 15 suddenly gave up something she loved. She took a break from it for a year, and then took it back up, and is now considering a career in that area.

With an instrument as long as she keeps playing, and maybe regains the joy of it, then she should be okay. And it doesn't sound as if she is the next Marc Andre Hamelin anyway.

I would just let her play for fun, and then see what she wants to do from there.

Doing exam work is boring. I play 2 instruments...1st one the 1st grade was 4, then 6 then 8. Other instrument straight in at 7. My parents NEVER asked me to practice. They did ask me to shut up quite a lot though lol.

If a kid plays because they enjoy it, rather than they have to, they are more likely to keep it up.

The grades system esp ABRSM can be utterly mind numbing ......weeks and weeks of relentlessly playing the same old bloody tunes and scales. I think they can kill passion for an instrument. I also think they are often in place for schools to crow on about musical accomplishment....really annoying. My DD 17 is reasonably musical on grade 8 flute and attends a school with a lot of genuine talent. This is what we've learned

• Trinity often suits a lot of kids - scales are integrated into the pieces and somehow Trinity is less soul destroying than ABRSM.
• many many kids have private lessons and progress through the grade levels but without ever sitting any exams it's not necessary to sit exams other than to give parents the kids a pat on the head. You do get some UCAS points which are handy but not the be all.
• orchestral and band involvement of any kind is always a great thrill, highly sociable and can involve tours which the kids generally all love.

I say if your daughter enjoys it, is good at it, and most importantly is committed to practice of her own back then do NOT push exams in any way or form just isn't necessary.

There is a girl at DD's school who is a talented violinist -never done a graded exam. Another kid plays 4 instruments to grade 7/8 level has a musical scholarship at the school and wants a career as a music producer - he blogs his stuff....an amazing talent - never sat a single music exam OR had a formalised private lesson.

As a teenager, I was forced to continue with piano lessons and taking exams when I just wanted to play for fun. Doing 'grades' was tedious and stressful, It sucked all the joy out of playing and I grew to hate the piano with a passion.

I think your DH has handled this well actually. He isn't advocating quitting at the drop of a hat. He's listening to your DD but encouraging her to continue with lessons until she has achieved the grade she's currently working towards before having a break, which sounds fair.

It's normal for an 11 year old to want to spend her free time with her friends and to try the same clubs and activities as them. You say you want her to think for herself but actually what comes across loud and clear is that you want her to agree with you and accept that you know best. You have clearly established DD in your mind as "the musical, creative one", all this stuff about talking about her being on the stage from birth etc. You need to accept that your view of her may not tie in with how she sees herself as she gets older.

She has had issues with attention and concentration in the past, enough so for a GP to want to refer her but we decided to manage it at home and liasing with the school so we both used the same approach and coping mechanisms..

You say you are "pushing" her but instead you may have been limiting both her academic and musical potential by evading this referral despite her struggles. You have defined her whole future for her as being non-academic, instead of accepting that she needs a referral so she can get the full support and adaptations she needs so she can enjoy the freedom to choose from the full range of activities and achieve to her full potential. Whether that is academic or musical. And trying to pressure her to take musical exams wont make up for lack of support/adaptations in academic work.

Posting only because my dd is both the same age and grade (though different instrument) so I've got some idea what you're going through here...
Her school encourages the children to form bands, which appear to be a keyboard/singer/drummer/guitarist combination. If there is something like that your dd might be able to use her keyboard skills? It's a bit more sociable.

My dd is really enjoying some extra music I bought her that is definitely not grade stuff - so Abba, Greatest Showman, Les Miserables - she quite often plays that 'to relax' so again that might take the pressure off. Maybe even just leaving some fun stuff on the piano...

While Grade 3 at 11 is (as so many people have just pointed out) not unusual, it is definitely on track for music to be a useful GCSE option for her. The school orchestra may well be glad of her as as percussionist.

My brother - who is a musician and a music teacher - went through a stage where my sister and I had to drag him into his piano lessons by his feet (working mum and we were the only ones home when the teacher arrives). He is now grateful we did this as music is his livelihood. He was by no means a prodigy, but he is a really talented teacher.

So I would say gentle encouragement. These next few weeks are always going to be a bit weird. If there's a Saturday music centre nearby that might help offer something different too - in my dds case she's going to a girls' school, so has joined the Saturday chamber orchestra partly because it redresses the gender balance a little (though not that much!).

Good luck!

I have never wanted to label any of my children, they are all completely different and I love that, if anything that was why we avoided the referral route as we didn’t want her pigeon holed or treated any different to her peers as she was growing up though I understand that was our opinion for our child and not something that would be beneficial to every child.

She does have other clubs and those are all her own choice and she has also had clubs that she has done for a few months, decided weren't for her and left and we have been absolutely fine for that, we arent some kind of militants that control every angle of her life and sap out any fun, only this weekend she missed a prepaid club which she enjoys because it was her friends birthday sleepover and we were completely happy with her choice.

I’m just sad that something she really enjoyed, thrived in and helped her hugely along the way has so quickly been forgotten.

Any thanks for all your (mostly) constructive advice, I will ease of and try to be a bit more supportive in her choices.