To think women’s rights are actually bad for women- Part 2

[BertrandRussell]

I thought this was an interesting thread-mostly- and it was refreshing to see a discussion like this on a more mainstream board, so I was wondering if anyone was interested in continuing it. The initial contention was (correct me if I'm misrepresenting it) that any sort of special treatment intended to minimise the disadvantage women still experience in some areas of life is counter productive and potentially discriminatory and that women should "toughen up". We should be teaching our girls to stand up to boys and men and not be intimidated by them.

I agree that it was an interesting thought...

I think that especially if you are a bit younger and havent really come across some of this stuff that it can be difficult to see why it was brought in and why its (possibly) still needed

There is a lot of low level sexism around and its that constant drip drip drip of influence moulds out thoughts still

My three teenage children have never been stopped from doing anything so although i worry about my boys as much as my girl its for different reasons.

Thanks for starting this Bertrand, I thought a lot of good points were made on the other thread.

Oh and i shoukd clarify that by young i dont mean very young...im not far off 50 and ti think that even people in their 30's will have had such a different youth to me

Women shouldn’t need to be tough to go on a motorcycle ride. Women shouldn’t need to worry about bumping into abusive ex at the gym/sports club.

Not to mention the religious doctrines enforced into the most vulnerable of our society regarding not spending time with the opposite sex (this is a huge issue with trans positive action also)

Take for example the case of women only swimming sessions in Birmingham. Local pools were asked by the city council to have women only sessions, they could bring children of any sex up to 12 years old. The sessions had an incredible affect on the local community. Muslim women otherwise ostracised from using facilities due to their religious needs, cooks suddenly use the pool with their families. Inclusion into society increased, crime went down, especially racial crime.

It opened up the world to those women and their families, to the benefit of us all.

The previous OP and those fighting for this barstardized ‘intersectional feminism’ need to remover they are not fighting for those who CAN ‘be tough’ they are fighting against those who can’t.

Trans identifying males placed into women’s only swimming pools in Birmingham will lead to thousands of Muslim families being unable to utilise the one hour a week designed for them.

Now ask yourself if that is progressive or intersectional

Placemarking to come back later.

Ditto

I wanted to pick up in the last comment on the first thread which is this by @Arthuritis

I just don't subscribe to the view that men are the problem.

People are the problem

I actually can't believe that people think like this. It's an uncomfortable truth but men commit the vast majority of crimes, particularly violent crime - no matter what sex their victim is. They make up the vast majority who owe children £4billion in child maintenance in this country. Yet the expectation is always on women to pick this mess up and try to counter it.

I have a son and you can sympathise with him all you like but I'm not deluded enough to think that just because I love him and I'm raising him right that he isn't part of the problem if he just sits idly by doing nothing.

I'd also love to know what your friend was falsely accused of if it wasn't rape? Because you know as well as I do that you were misleading when the discussion turned to false allegations of rape saying "I had a friend who had a false allegation made against him by a woman and it came up on his DBS" and it not refer to rape. What did he not do that we was accused of?

Surely in an ideal world there would be no need for gender specific activities but I don't think that we're quite there yet. Having said that I think progress could include describing sessions better like 'introductory' or 'relaxing' which I'm not saying should be just for the ladies! What I mean is that a lot of social activities can get bizarrely competitive very quickly, in my experience especially when a bunch of men are trying to prove themselves. That can be toxic to both sides and is just so unnecessary. So I don't think it's 'women's rights' that are the problem but maybe us all being a bit kinder to ourselves and each other when the need is there. If you want to razz off with the main pack then go for it, but leave some space for the less confident/quieter/possibly more content with their lot folks who don't want to compete.

85,000 rapes in England and Wales each year. That's overwhemingly men raping women. Not people raping people..

Can't believe this poor menz thread is still going!

Bertrand I found the last thread infuriating. All this is business about men changing things. In the real world my DH is equally respectful to both sexes so what more can he do? He works hard and it's enough for him to get through the day. The trouble is that the non decent men couldn't give a monkey's about what feminists or anyone else says. The only thing people can do is petition for changes in the law.

I can see what you mean, derxa- but as far as the UK is concerned, legislation is not the issue. Equality laws are in place. The problem really is social attitudes. And they won't change unless men are on board with changing them. On my infamous "list" I say something about questioning sexist attitudes and behaviour in the workplace. Men often don't notice them-because they are so much the norm. For example, my dp chairs a lot of conferences as part of his work. He make a point of trying to call on equal numbers of men and women for comments from the floor, and he has observed that if he calls on a woman to make the first point, then he is more likely to get other women speaking. So he tries to do it every time. Easy for him, makes a significant difference to the balance of the discussion. Men don't have to make heroic efforts to make a difference. If you hold the balance of power you can easily facilitate change.

And the "happy sheets" he gets frequently mention the positive participation of women in the events he chairs.

You know I’ve made a number of contributions on this feminist forum and not one has ever been acknowledged or deemed worthy of discussion.

Will be the last time I post on this forum.

Not every post is acknowledged, especially if people don't disagree with you.

I posted

Then went out

Just read the thread so far

Are you seriously leaving cos noone acknowledged your post camel

Posts are regularly 'ignored' doesnt mean they arent read and that people dont agree

I agree with every word you said

And what 5bob said

For example, my dp chairs a lot of conferences as part of his work. He make a point of trying to call on equal numbers of men and women for comments from the floor

Same with mine, he regularly comments in meetings about the lack of female representation and tries to change it at work

Its not very successful because, in my opinion, there are still massive changes to be made at a societal level

It’s literally been three months of posting without a single bit of acknowledgement. It’s fine, I have plenty of actual feminist work to be getting on with. I was just hoping I would be ‘accepted’ here and be able to join in, but I’ve tried for long enough. Thanks anyway.

It’s not ‘one post’
It’s been EVERY post. Anyway, carry on as you were. I’m done.

CAMEL

I frequently get ignored

(I rarely say anything insightful to be fair )

Your post was great

And i will put money on it that people nod along at your posts

It would be a shame for FWR to lose your voice

But im not begging

(No one commnted in my post either...and im a fucking delight!!)

Can't you keep your faux feminism to the faux feminist boards without encroaching on aibu with your toxicity?

CantankerousCamel I know what you mean. I left FWR last week for the reason you gave and the apparent discrimination against women who are disabled. I've felt much better for leaving the toxic clique although there are a small number of genuine feminists. thebewildered and Rufus being two, both fair and having the ability to listen.

I'm sorry you feel like that CantankerousCamel. Personally, I very rarely acknowledge posts I agree with- I just breathe a sigh of relief that there's one more on "our" side. For what it's worth, I tend only to get acknowledged by people who think I am a man hating hairy legged tedious throwback!

Discrimination against people with disabilities? Did I miss something?
And faux feminism?