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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think fathers should get use-it-or-lose-it paternity leave once the mother is back at work?

81 replies

HavelockVetinari · 09/09/2018 18:33

It seems so unfair that mums get to have time off to look after their DC but dads get 2 weeks unless the mum is willing to give up some of her own leave. Why can't the government acknowledge the importance of a father in a child's life and give them their own entitlement?

Benefits:

• Improved bonding from 1:1 sole care responsibility day in, day out;
• Less discrimination against women of childbearing age in the workplace;
• Hopefully more equal split of parenting duties.

Should this be a MN campaign? I truly think the benefits to women would actually even outweigh the benefits to men (although that's clearly not the way to sell it!).

OP posts:
PotteringAlong · 09/09/2018 18:35

How would you fund it?

NewYearNewMe18 · 09/09/2018 18:38

Mum get time off so their body recovers. When dad squeezes a bowling ball out of a smartie tube, he can have a year off.

cadburyegg · 09/09/2018 18:42

Isn’t shared parental leave an option now? Several of my friends have taken advantage of this.

The nature of my DH’s work means that this isn’t an option for us but like a pp said... taking as much maternity leave as I can is sort of my reward for being pregnant for 9 months, labour, childbirth, recovery, breastfeeding etc. Grin

TeddyIsaHe · 09/09/2018 18:43

Mums get time off because even if they have a very straight-forward birth they could need to recover from major abdo surgery, tears, vaginal stitches, incontinence. Also a newborn doesn't particularly need it's dad, mum is the one with the food, the heartbeat that the baby knows and is calmed by. Of course its lovely raising baby together, but thats why mum has maternity leave.

Anyway, you can choose to give your husband/partner some of your own maternity leave (shared care) so if it was that important to familes they can choose to do that.

Fluffyears · 09/09/2018 18:43

Women have the time to recover and to encourage breastfeeding as they recommend 6 months BF. Father unfortunately can’t breastfeedand also haven’t irrevocably changed their bodies in childbirth.

Original poster
HavelockVetinari · 09/09/2018 18:53

I did give DH 3 months of shared parental leave, and I expressed at work during that time as I was bf. I felt a bit bitter about going back to work whilst he enjoyed the summer with DS, particularly since DS slept much better after around 9 months. However, seeing the difference it's made in his bond with DS (which I'd previously thought was very strong) I feel sad that the only way for him to get that time with DS was at my expense.

To be clear, women have it so much harder (pregnancy, birth, breast feeding) and that should always be acknowledged. However, it doesn't detract from women if men can have THEIR OWN, separate entitlement to leave after 12 months. It just feels incredibly unfair that it doesn't already exist and unpaid leave would be unaffordable for most families.

OP posts:
NationalShiteDay · 09/09/2018 18:54

I've earned every last second of my maternity leave. Any bloke that thinks he's entitled to even a millisecond of it can go jump. I'm the one that carried baby for 9 months, birthed it, fed it. Can a bloke do that? No, it can't.

NationalShiteDay · 09/09/2018 18:56

Your DHs bond with baby isnt reliant on him spending 3 months 1:1. Pretty sad if is

Glumglowworm · 09/09/2018 18:57

Fathers can already take shared parental leave when the mother goes back to work

Most couples still choose for the woman to take the full amount of leave (or as much leave as they can afford).

SachaStark · 09/09/2018 18:59

My friends in Norway tell me that each couple can divide up the year's leave between them however they wish, which seems fair to me. That way, if the mother wants to go back to work at three/six months (as many wish to), they can, and the father can have the rest of the time, but the couple as a whole are still entitled to pay from their employers for parental leave.

Currently, what do gay men do when they have a baby? Does one just have to give up work entirely, or if they have a newborn by surrogate, do they get leave/but the baby straight into childcare?

dinosaurkisses · 09/09/2018 19:00

There is still trouble trying to get some men to take their full two weeks paternity leave, never mind encouraging them to take more time away from work.

dinosaurkisses · 09/09/2018 19:02

Sacha - I think gay men can avail of adoptive leave which is very similar in length of time off etc as maternity

BikeRunSki · 09/09/2018 19:04

But with shared parental leave, the “maternity leave” is handed over to the parents rather than just the mother. Seems fair. I get that dimensions have to have recovery time, and that laws are in place to protect this. I have always felt rather sorry for fathers, who have an equally life changing event, but are expected to go back to normal after 2 weeks. Giving fathers a seperate and additional entitlement would cost a fortune! No reason fathers can’t apply for flexible/part time working though.

EvilRingahBitch · 09/09/2018 19:10

In Sweden there is joint parental leave of 480 days of which 90 days is “use it or lose it” for each parent. As I understand it they’re considering increasing that to 5 months. The idea of heavily incentivising men to take a serious chunk of leave is that it reduces discrimination by employers against women of reproductive age, so it’s very much in WOH women’s interests.

SendintheArdwolves · 09/09/2018 19:12

The parents should be able to choose whatever division of their parental leave suits their family. But I don't see why there should be a separate paternity leave in addition to maternity leave - can't they just share it?

I'm sorry you felt jealous of your partner bonding with his child and "having a lovely summer" but I'm not sure that's justification to have extra paid leave so that the woman still gets the full year without having to "give up" some of that time to her partner.

In an ideal world, both parents should get the first five years fully paid to bond with their child, but that would be rather expensive for our society.

Original poster
HavelockVetinari · 09/09/2018 19:13

Your DHs bond with baby isnt reliant on him spending 3 months 1:1. Pretty sad if is

^ please don't be deliberately obtuse. I think it's pretty obvious that having sole care day-in, day-out for a baby will strengthen your bond as opposed to always being the secondary parent. If you look at qualitative data from families where the father has taken parental leave they almost unanimously report a strengthened bond with their offspring (which shouldn't be a surprise - if you spend more time together it's natural for your relationship to deepen).

OP posts:
Original poster
HavelockVetinari · 09/09/2018 19:15

that would be rather expensive for our society

Yes, I know, but i can't help but feel that society doesn't really value a father's role enough which leads to a more unequal society overall.

OP posts:
TillyTheTiger · 09/09/2018 19:15

I do agree that the UK should have longer funded paternity leave. I'm a SAHM and DH will only be able to take one week after DC2 is born because it would cost us about £500 for him to drop to SPP for the second week, and we just can't afford it.

AssassinatedBeauty · 09/09/2018 19:23

Shared parental leave reduces the mother's maternity leave, as she has to surrender it in order to facilitate the father's parental leave. It isn't available without this surrendering happening. I agree that any additional leave for fathers shouldn't be at the expense of the mother's maternity leave, it should be available as paternity leave in its own right.

The take up for shared parental leave is minuscule, due to all sorts of issues about how in reality it works for couples. It's certainly not anything that could have worked for me in my situation.

thejeangenie36 · 09/09/2018 19:43

I think PPs have rather missed the point of the OP. This was, as I understand it, to extend paid paternity leave (only one week is currently paid, the second unpaid). This doesn't need to be some kind of zero sum game where paternity leave comes out of maternity leave, though that is how current legislation on shared parental leave works.

GoJetterGirl · 09/09/2018 19:43

Mum get time off so their body recovers. When dad squeezes a bowling ball out of a smartie tube, he can have a year off

^^this x1000

That and the 2 weeks my DH got was needed when I had DS2 as he had to care for DS1 who has cancer and the inlaws are not able (nor would I want them) to look after him...

Dreamingofkfc · 09/09/2018 19:45

Personally I don't think the bond between dads and children have anything to do with paternity leave - I would be interested to see the research that states the bond is strengthened by parental leave. My husband and the two boys are so close. He works 9-5 but does bedtime, does nursery drop offs and when I'm working he has them at weekend. I don't think this would be any different if he'd taken parental leave.

NationalShiteDay · 09/09/2018 20:01

If you look at qualitative data from families where the father has taken parental leave they almost unanimously report a strengthened bond with their offspring

I'd be interested to see a link to the original research. Self reported, qualitative data is rarely particularly rigorous. How do you know what their bond would be if they hadn't taken more leave? You'd have to do a case control study and compare self reports between those that did and didn't take the leave. And then it wouldn't be qualitative...

darceybussell · 09/09/2018 20:02

I shared my leave with my partner, I saw it as leave that was available for both of us to take, but I think I'm in the minority, many women don't see it like that. I agree that the Scandinavian system of giving an entitlement to both parents is a great idea. For example in Iceland all mothers get 3 months, all fathers get 3 months and then there are an additional 3 months available for either parent. This was initially the plan for the uk but feminist groups objected to any leave entitlement being taken from women.

thejeangenie36 · 09/09/2018 20:05

This is a womens issue as much as a men's one. At present very few men take the option of shared parental leave as they fear it is looked down on by employers.

Earlier this year MPs called for paternity leave to be extended to 12 weeks (to be taken at any point in the first year), on a use it or lose it basis that would not have affected the mothers entitlement. The argument was that this would normalise this in working culture. At present the system encourages the principle that only the mother should be the care giver, and the argument was that extending paternity leave would facilitate mother's return to work (if they wished it) and help close the gender pay gap.