AIBU to insist on a court order?

[fennelteadrinker]

Hello, I'm new to this, first time poster so please be gentle - sorry for the long post, but I want to give all the background so I don’t drip feed. I have two DC with ex-partner. We broke up almost two years ago now; he left me for his current partner with whom he now has another child. He was always verbally and financially abusive when we were together, but during and after the break up he was physically abusive, police were called several times and I now have a Non-Mol in place valid until next year.

Since the beginning contact has been tricky with him often missing weekends (we agreed every other) or when he did pick up he was abusive, rude and insolent. I went NC with him, and have tried to arrange things through his family members, in an attempt to protect myself from the abuse, and my best friend is usually present when he picks up and drops off (as he isn’t normally abusive in front of others) to protect my children from witnessing it. He lived about 20 miles away, and 50% of the time, he’d collect my DC on a Friday and then say he couldn’t drop them off on Sunday, so I’d have to go an collect them.

He’s since moved 100 miles away to set up home with current partner. Contact has been okay with him picking up and dropping off on the agreed dates, although never agreed times. 3 weekends ago his mum came to collect the children on the promise that he would bring them back as usual. On the Sunday night his mother told me that he had car trouble and would bring them back on Monday, and on Monday he said he wasn’t prepared to take the train so I’d need to make the trip (to a random landmark I might add, I’m not allowed to know where he lives even though my children go there). We were due to go on holiday the following day, so I had to make a 5 hour round trip to collect them.

I’m unwilling to go back to the old pattern of having to collect the kids every other time he has them (he chose to move so far away from them), so would like a child arrangement order to be put in place.

His mother has just messaged informing me that he will collect the children tomorrow morning (he missed his last weekend with them with no communication, but this is technically ‘his’ weekend). I’m thinking of responding to her saying, “he needs to put a child arrangement order in first place”, or "he is not collecting without a court order” or simply say, "this weekend doesn't work" and follow it up with and email detailing exactly why? Basically I don’t want contact to cease (my DC love their Dad), but I have anxiety every time he is coming to collect them because I don’t know what he’ll do, I’m uncomfortable with not knowing where my children stay when they're with him (what if one of them was sick etc.), and I’m afraid that if he takes them, he’ll refuse to return them, which will force me to make a 5 hour round trip to collect them. AIBU? What do you think?

In your situation I'd certainly get a court order. However I wouldn't advise telling his mother what you've suggested here. It isn't her situation, it's his, and you'd be better off going ahead and getting an order , rather than talking about it on the spur of the moment.

You need to get many things sorted, and a court order would clarify everything for you. Including where he lives - it is certainly unsafe for them to be going to an unknown location for their visits. Once you've got a child arrangement order , you can then enforce it, instead of putting up with his nonsense.

I’ve been in this position and am somewhat still in it. If this weekend doesn’t work for you say that but don’t explain why. It will lead to a cross-fire of arguments.
You can say you’ll be in touch shortly with more details.
Think about how you want to proceed.
A court order won’t help you achieve much if your ex decides not to have the children on his allocated weekends. It won’t stop him being late or force him to return them himself as he isn’t attempting to keep them from you.
It can be useful in setting out the specific dates he has access.
As for being denied his address, that’s a safeguarding issue. You have a right to know the address your children are staying at and any details of holidays he takes them on.
Stay objective and manage this situation. He doesn’t get to call the shots.
You can ask him to apply for a court order so you’re all clear on how to proceed.
During the hearing request your ex is made aware of the need to be consistent in turning up and responsible for his own transport. If he breaks these conditions you can refuse contact until he goes back to court and you agree once more.
It sounds like him and his new partner are being a pain at every opportunity, once you deal with this they’ll find a new way to get at you I suspect.
You must stay objective, don’t worry about justifying yourself to your ex or anyone connected with him.
It’s quite simple, he picks his days, you agree, the court puts it in writing and he adheres to his own request. If he doesn’t, continue with your own life until he reapplies and you go back through the court process once more. It’s not much different to any other formal admin once you’ve done several times!
Good luck, breath deeply and stay above it.

It’s not much different to any other formal admin once you’ve done several times!

This is so sad. Why are so many ‘fathers’ so bloody useless?

Can I just add it is not for you to arrange the court order, it’s his responsibility.
All the court order means in your situation is that he can turn up on any of his allocated days because he now has a legal right to that time. He can also decide not to turn up, give you no notice and wait until the next scheduled contact if he so pleases.
None of his pattern of behaviour will change until you say no each time and force him to justify himself to a Judge by making an application to enforce.
They’ll ask why you refused contact and you can explain that you are not withholding contact, but you want consistency and for him to be responsible for collecting and dropping off, on time under his own resources.
You must not provide him with a legally enforceable order he can use as a weapon, your life will be even worse than it is now.
If he’s serious he’ll apply because you’ve told him you want a formal agreement and that’s his only option now.
You have every right to a peaceful life and your children deserve to know where they stand too.

Thank you all for your advice! Would it be ok to contact him directly to let him know that I am refusing contact?

It would be polite to contact his mother to save her the trip to your house to collect the children. As he didn't make the arrangement with you, I can't see why you need to tell him. You're responding along the route he contacted you with arrangements.
At this stage don't give any explanations other than you didn't hear from him last week when expected and are unavailable this weekend.
Leave it at that.
The point here is to have time to think over your options and start the long, drawn-out process of expecting to be treated with respect.

• I wouldn't be sending my children anywhere I didn't have an address for.

I wouldn't say a court order is the only answer for you, they can cause more problems than they solve and their intended use is to enforce contact where contact is being repeatedly denied. These are not your circumstances. However, a court will insist he stops playing games and will understand your need for an address of where your children are staying. A court order cannot force your ex to be a good parent, but it may be refused in years to come if there's evidence he repeatedly disrupts his own contact provisions. Whatever route you take, expect a storm of abuse in retaliation, have coping mechanisms in place and never respond unless you are legally required to.

How old are the kids?
I would contact both him and his mother - by message - to say that they are not available this weekend.
I would then say that you are not going to allow further contact without at court order.

I wouldnt go into details as to why as otherwise you will get an argument.

I would then go out tomorrow so you are not at home when he is likely to arrive.

Good Luck!

It may not feel like it, but you are in a much stronger position than you realise. I assume your children are still fairly young? Once they start clubs and get party invites he's going to be under pressure from them to attend. How will he facilitate this?
Do not make it your problem. If events occur during his weekend and he says no, then you will have to respect this. Your children may not!
At some point he'll probably expect your help changing contact times as he's decided to move so far away.
You can say no. You may have plans? If he finds this stage too hard to cope with, conflicting with his new family, he may start dropping contact.
Can you see the potential future nightmare playing out here? Do not let any of this become your issue to solve. You need agreed contact times, for him to turn up and drop off without your help and on always on time. There are no excuses. A school or childminder wouldn't allow his behaviour.
If he wants your help in the future he should behave respectfully. He thinks you're competent enough to take care of the majority of parenting for his children after all.

Contrary to what has been said above, you are both equally responsible for applying for a court order to regularise the arrangements. Presumably you want an order that states where the children live and what time they spend with each parent. By refusing contact this weekend, when you say that is ‘his weekend’, you will be upsetting the children. I know that it is frustrating when he missed the last one but refusing contact is only going to inflame the situation. It will not impress the family court if you go down that route. Could you suggest mediation, with either a 3rd Party you both trust or a professional? You will need to attend a mediation session before you apply to court anyway?

LittleOwl153 with respect, that's using a threat against a person who will rise to being provoked. He will see red, based on his description?
A court order isn't a quick process, the threat will make him panic and angry. It will likely ruin the OPs relationship with his relatives/mediators too.
Slow down and take each stage as it comes. A court order may not be the best fit. Mediation may?
Contact a family lawyer and ask for details of local mediation organisations - they don't all cost fees.
I would certainly never suggest a solicitor anyway unless you can get one on legal-aid or whatever is the modern equivalent.
This is about biding time, getting his address before contact resumes and laying out the seriousness of his obligations.

Caroelle either party can apply for a contact order. I cannot imagine why someone intentionally withholding contact would jointly apply? Unless I am misunderstanding you?
It is also legitimate to withhold contact without an address or being confident your children are going to be returned home when expected from 100 miles away.
Yes the OP could honour this weekend and it would give her less immediate stress from retaliation but it wouldn't go against her if she didn't agree to contact on the basis of what she has said. She's asking for important information and a longterm commitment to which she is agreeing to cooperate with.

For now I would say this weekend isn't suitable. Have you kept notes of all his behaviour? If you have a means of contacting him directly (email?) I would wait until the next time he asks for contact and then say you can't support it any more because he is not acting in the best interests of the children. Don't mention court order. See a solicitor in the meantime so you can be confident of your ground

Re this:
Think about how you want to proceed.
A court order won’t help you achieve much if your ex decides not to have the children on his allocated weekends. It won’t stop him being late or force him to return them himself as he isn’t attempting to keep them from you.
I'm not sure it's true. If he gets a court order and doesn't stick to it, you can apply to get the order varied. His own dickhead behaviour will erode any order he attains. You need to do this while you are still protected by the non mol.

OP some of the advice on this read is completely incorrect.

I believe a court order will help you. It won't make him do things the way he should necessarily but it will give you some rules by which contact should be managed and when he doesn't comply then you can look at what should be done about it. At the moment denying contact would not work in your favour legally.

You absolutely must not consider mediation. It is totally wrong for someone in your situation. You need a good solicitor who you trust and who has experience in dealing with these kinds of issues - by which I mean abusive and controlling men.

Unfortunately I don't believe that legally you do have a right to know his address, however concerning that is for you.

This is all about control and manipulation. A court order would remove some of the control from him.

bastardkitty - a variation order is the same as any order, if ex won't turn up when he's meant to. As has already been stated. A court order of any form, varied or not, cannot force anyone to be there on every occasion if they choose not to.
It will serve as an official record of what was agreed and not adhered to, thus causing inconsistency for the children and that's when more rigorous interventions can be enforced such as supervision etc.
Doyoumind - unless the actual Law has changed, which it may have I appreciate, the OP is entitled to know where her children are regularly residing and also have the full contact details of any holidays.
You're right that a solicitor would help with these points, but a mediation service is cheaper/free and does not need to be in the same room as the ex.
Additionally, the op is being compliant and as she's instigating proceedings or a more formal approach to the whole situation, nothing here would go against her. Even if the ex was to apply for residence this wouldn't count, as her intentions are for a longterm plan. Have either of you personally been through these proceedings in their entirety? I have over a very prolonged period of time. These are my observations from the process as a whole.

I don't think you really understand what people are saying about court orders.

Polip mediation with this man would be a total waste of time and money. Being in separate rooms won't make a difference. Nothing agreed in mediation is binding and the whole issue is that this man doesn't stick to agreements. He's not a fair and rational man who will come to an agreement himself. You are filling up this thread with very subjective views and information. No mediator would be advising the process in a situation where a non mol is in place.

I have been through the mediation process twice and through the court process and have a CAO. My ex was/is controlling and abusive and I have spent thousands of pounds sorting out child arrangements so I think I have an idea what I'm talking about.

Doyoumind Me too! I am not actually disagreeing with all your points and like me you've spent thousands. I suggested the mediation service because they are headed up by people who are legally qualified, so are free access to information and points of law.
I agree mediation is a waste of time. So are solicitors. I now represent myself in court.
I can also say that a court order is a waste of time if the purpose is to 'enforce' contact from an absent parent - it won't. It will however be a useful for weapon for the ex to turn up within the stated contact times as and when he pleases.
In my case, the ex assumed that as long as he was within one of those contact times, there could be any amount of time in-between if he had other plans.
It is not easy to get variations, firstly there has to be a fairly long period of inconsistent contact and even then the first time the judges will make allowances.
Mine was over a decade of going back and forth with it. We had supervised access, year long absences and all kinds.
The other crucial issue is that once there's a court order in place you will need it and the ex's authority on a whole variety of life admin issues like schools, passports etc. If they don't stick to the order the order still stands until you get it revoked - not easy.
Think about how useful it is in reality. When you see that box that says 'is there a court order in place' it either means your DCs are not going to be given to the ex outside its terms but also that you will not be given permission to do anything without the ex's say-so either. If you can tick no court order, life is much simpler.
It has pros and cons, that's my 'subjective' view. And rather the point of asking for opinions on here I think ;)

Thank you so much everybody for your responses. I have contacted his mother and let her know that the children will not be available this weekend while I mull over my options.

I do not want a court order to enforce contact what I was hoping that it would do would 'smooth over' the contact process as communication has totally broken down. I'm hoping that a court order will suggest times/ days for drop off and collection which would stop the current 'mediation' that I have through his mother.

Polip- thank you for your insight on clubs etc. He has said that 'his weekends are his and so the children will have to miss any activities on these days' I was hoping the court order might also accommodate this?

I only joined this site to answer you. Am usually a lurker. So sorry I dominated your thread. I can't watch someone else walk into the nightmares I did - financially and mentally. There is an end point one day I promise. Its so simple in reality, just state your reasonable terms and always be there for that. I am going to unsubscribe from here now, good luck.

No your order won't accommodate him doing clubs or anything. You will be back and forth for variances. Do you have the money for this? You also won't likely get them anyway as he can't accommodate them from that distance. This was my point! Try getting out of the country with a court order in place, you won't be going anywhere, all your travel plans are in his hands. Please get some legal advice from a source that is free. I suggested a mediation centre for you to access free info and support. You don't have to include him in that unless you want to.

Ok, this makes perfect sense now.

If you get a court ordered visitation schedule you need to insist on knowing his address, and also that he informs you within one week of any move. You should also insist that he provides a phone number that is current. You will do the same for him.

Along with visitation will come the question of custody - joint custody with visitation eow to exH, or you having custody with eow visitation to exH. Can you or he take the children out if the country for a holiday? How much notice of a proposed holiday? An itinerary must be furnished. Get legal advice.

You should make an arrangement in your schedule for Christmas, Easter, bank holidays, school breaks (half terms and longer holidays), and also Father's day and Mother's day, plus what happens with children's birthdays and your birthday and his.

The order should be specific about time of handover and who travels. It could also be specific about location of handover - I advise a public place to reduce his scope for abusing you. I also advise a point that is half way between your home and his.

There should also be a deadline of, say, Friday at noon for cancellation of any scheduled visit and there should be no leeway at all for him not to return them when he is supposed to, or to spring it on you that you are going to have to travel all the way to pick them up. They will have school to go to at some point, so he needs to get his act together. They are also going to have party invitations and school or sport or dance activities on weekends. How will he facilitate their social lives and activities from a distance of 100 miles?

I assume you realise that contact with an abusive man is never in the best interests of the children no matter how much they appear to love him? I also assume that you have considered the impact of the 100 mile distance on your children's lives in future years?

If you sincerely think contact is going to be ok, get an order that covers 365 days of the year, and keep a log of all the times he breaches the schedule and the rules. Be prepared to take him back to court to ask that the arrangement be ended if he continues to play games with you.

Get legal advice

There is no court order that will effectively change this abusive man's personality, which is what you really want.

So I would get legal advice, with a view to ending contact altogether.

If it comes to him against you in court - assuming he wants an order forcing visitation and goes to court for one, you will need to show a pattern of hostility to you, visits missed for petty reasons, complete lack of civilised communication between the two of you if you want to fight it. You will also have to prove it is not in the best interests of the children - this is the most important element.

If he wants an order, he will gave to show that this is in the best interests of the children. So his statement about 'his' weekends and no facilitation of the chidren's activities will be viewed poorly.

You should actually pay attention to this statement of his because it is an important indication that he doesn't give a flying fuck about the children and this is all about his sense of entitlement. He sees them as property and visitation as a means to continue to jerk you around.

Every detail you have supplied about him is a huge red flag indicating that continued contact will be disastrous for you and for the children

Overall, I would unilaterally end the charade and waIt for him to go to court seeking visitation.

Honestly OP you are still getting dodgy advice here. Speak to a good solicitor and then make an informed decision about how to proceed.

What you don't perhaps realise is that you can have a lot of input into what goes in the court order. What you want is something that is comprehensive so you have rules in place that he might not adhere to but that you can use as a framework. It will limit the contact you have with him and allow you to ignore him if he doesn't stick to it. It could give you more control and him less.

If you are careful with your planning of what goes into a court order you can avoid a lot of the issues that could come out of having one.

If you are the resident parent there shouldn't be issues going on holiday either.

Mediators are trained as mediators but are not necessarily legally trained and they are not able to offer legal advice as part of their role as a mediator anyway.