To ask what happens if you can't afford to do jury service?

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Let me start off by saying that I always thought I'd like to do jury service one day.

Now I've discovered that not only do my employers not pay you when you're on jury service, the rates courts pay you for loss of earnings are paltry - the sum I'd get for the first 10 days would be less than half what I'd actually lose, and rates from day 11 are still less than my wages so I couldn't actually afford to do it www.gov.uk/jury-service/what-you-can-claim

Can you refuse to do jury service on the grounds that you can't afford the loss of earnings? I'm single and have rent to pay, for context.

DH was called but was excused as he is partially deaf. He contacted the court and wasn't asked for proof surprisingly (I thought he would be).

I've been called twice, did it both times, enjoyed the experience, and was .....satisfied? pleased? to have done my civic duty and to be able to look the abused daughter in the eye after we found her father guilty of rape.
Employers should make up the difference so you are not out of pocket, plus you get subsistence and travel expenses on top. You can only defer once per call-up, can refuse if called again in under 2 years, will get asked if you can do a long case or not before being sworn in, They call at random from electoral roll but you will be excused if you have prison record, learning difficulties or work in certain occupations etc.
It's an important part of the justice system. There is a lot of information online to reassure those called up - it is stressful anticipating it, but interesting doing it, even if only being led around the courts through secret passages!

There's a lot of posters on here who seem to advocate following the rules no matter the personal cost. Fuck that. Why do so many mumsnetters bow down to authority?

Gosh, aren't you COOL. I bet you have a "fuck the police" T-shirt and everything.

I got an exemption for two years running (first was when I was bf my 3mo baby, second was when court date coincided with the anniversary of my first DCs death) then when I was called up this year I was able to be excused on the first day through explaining to the clerk I didn’t want to miss my DDs nursery graduation.
This was at a local sheriff court though, and they had invited plenty of potential jurors.

Absolutely howling with laughter at the oh-so-useful emergency childcare cover. we're not in Kansas (M25) anymore toto.

Ex (living 30 miles from court no emergency childcare) made a profit. He was low-paid but got a generous mileage allowance and food money despite being fed at the court. Horrid case though - the worst possible - so he paid a price anyway.

"Actually I live on a council estate and you never seem to get the 'scally' people invited to do jury service"

Another tenant of the housing association i rent from got called up. The case coincided with the annual gas safety check so he asked if HA could move it. He told them he was on jury service.

They still turned up to do the gas check and threatened him with eviction when he wasnt there to let them in. He reminded them he was on jury service and they still wouldnt budge.

on the Universal Credit survival fb page someone explained how they got sanctioned for not being available to work extra hours due to being on jury service

There are plenty of problems with people on a low income being summoned to do it.

Agree with a pp If its that important fund it properly. How are jurors supposed to concentrate on the case if they are sitting in court worrying about money and eviction or even how they are going to buy food.

I have a physical disability, complex-PTSD and a sick child who needs to have 1 parent within speedy travelling distance at all times. He's in childcare but it's part of the deal that one of his parents is nearby. DH can cover as long as he's in the country (frequently works abroad).

I'd struggle for any case longer than a few days, or any case that could trigger or add to my complex-PTSD. I've never been called for service, but hopefully I'd be able to explain and defer. I hope they'd understand that a 3 day non-emotive case would be ok, and I'd be very happy to do it, but a longer emotive case would be damaging to my mental and physical health.

"Why do so many mumsnetters bow down to authority"

In this instance, because I'd want to exercise my right to a fair trial if I was wrongly accused of a crime. Rights come with responsibilities.

Most of the time you go just for the one morning and then you’re done

That's not my experience and certainly not something that can be relied upon. I think I was only excused for a few hours within the whole two week period and spent several days sitting in an uncomfortable crowded room with not enough chairs for everyone waiting to sit down.

Food and drinks were appalling and you couldn't buy a lunch and a couple of coffees with the allowance they gave you, but it was difficult to go out and get back in the time allowed. Certainly all done on the cheap, but at the same time ridiculously inefficient. if they organised themselves better, they could get it all done with a better 'experience' without costing more.

The general population is on the whole pretty stupid, and easily swayed by emotion not facts and evidence

I also agree with this comment. I spent about 3.5 days involved with two trials over a 2 week period. One was a majority rather than a unanimous verdict because the jury wouldn't agree and it was clear that some jurors were just voting in a certain way to get it over and done with and the second reached no conclusion at all because it was clear we would never get even a majority verdit.

OP, sympathies, you can only write and explain your predicament and ask to defer. Your circumstances might be different if and when you get called up again. I do wonder that, if the situation with the dog is true, eg that you work from home and look after your dog at the same time, would they pay for dog walker expenses if you did serve?

Rights come with responsibilities.

Which cuts two ways. The state also has responsibilities.

Jury duty IS important.

Which is why people should be recompensed at their current salary rate as the bare minimum, or if not working and with caring responsibilities, then the costs of care covered as a bare minimum.

If you present people with the prospect of losing the equivalent of several weeks pay, and possibly even their homes (when they can't pay the rent / mortgage) or jobs (in especially long trials), you shouldn't be surprised that lots of them will baulk at the idea.

£65 a day would mean some full time working mothers could not cover their full time childcare bill nor pay their mortgage or rent that week though which is why it is very unfair. If your childcare is £100 a day for each of 2 babies - inner London full time work expensive kind of nursery - yes people have that kind and you have no annual leave left as you have to use it up when the nursery is closed you need £200 a day of after tax income not £65 before you even cover your childcare, never mind say £2k a month rent of £100 a day, so even £300 would mean nothing over for food and your regular bills for that week or two you are busy.

Unless we just want retired people and the unemployed doing it we should pay people so they suffer no financial loss at all even if that means those of us on £100k+ are not out of pocket otherwise you stop getting juries that are representative. Obviously billionaires and those with loads of savings can do it but that is not the situation of plenty of these kinds of London families with such high costs just to get to work and have the children looked after.

I don’t know anyone who wants to do jury duty and all the people I know fear a long drawn out groosome case.
Where I live it’s jail and fine for contempt of court or obstruction, so everyone goes and hopes they’re not picked.

Xenia i have posted on this page the problems incurred by people on a low income being asked to do it.

Jury duty IS important.

"Each jury is a little parliament. The jury sense is the parliamentary sense. I cannot see the one dying and the other surviving. The first object of any tyrant in Whitehall would be to make parliament utterly subservient to his will; and the next to overthrow or diminish trial by jury, for no tyrant could afford to leave a subject's freedom in the hands of 12 of his countrymen. So that trial by jury is more than an instrument of justice and more than one wheel of the constitution; it is the lamp that shows that freedom lives."

I'm gutted about deferring! I was offered the Old Bailey, but my DS was only 3 weeks old at the time and I was EBF. My DDad totally understood why I was torn at the time, have not been offered anything else since
But in your situation, I'd have no regrets about deferring, even with the Old Bailey X

I don’t know anyone who wants to do jury duty

I know I’m a weirdo but I really do! I’ve just had a summons and I won’t be well enough to which I’m gutted about. I think I watch too much court drama on TV!

I've done it twice but I'm a civil servant and get full pay. DH got called up (works for a very small business and would not have got paid).

I wrote him a letter to send about the reasonable adjustments he'd need (hearing/understanding) and they have excused him for life. I get the feeling they can't be bothered with any adjustments for disabled people.

If jury duty is so important they need to fund it properly. Also the whole system is a farce. DH turned up 6 times in 2 weeks for jury service and was never needed, either because the whole case got dropped at the last minute or there were too many jurors. So many would-be jurors are still paid expenses out of taxpayers money even if they are never sworn into a case.

I laugh at the idea that jury service should be compared to being taken ill in an emergency, with regards to childcare. I’d be happy to send my DS1 to nursery for the extra days but his nursery wouldn’t have the availability. And I’m simply not willing to put 6 month old DS2 into childcare full time for potentially weeks on end, especially as he is still predominantly breast fed.

Should I, earning a little below the national average, have to sit on a jury next to someone who is being reimbursed perhaps £100-150 more per day than me for doing the exact same thing?

Yes, you should! You sit next to people earning more than you on the bus and train and in restaurants. It's even more important to do so for jury service. If people on higher salaries with correspondingly higher fixed outgoings (childcare/mortgage/bills) can't afford to do jury service then you don't get a balanced cross-section of society able to do their duty.

I'm a self-employed single parent. I can't afford my outgoings on £65 a day. I'm off to check the wording of my legal cover!

@AnneElliott I think my DH was excused for life as well because of his hearing. He can hear some things but not certain tones so hearing aids don't work and he often misses part of a sentence or certain words sound the same. Probably not the best person for jury duty! There probably is more they can do for some people though.

I’m 60 and only know about 4 people who have done it, one of them was DF who did it when I was about 15. The other 3 were work colleagues. Some people seem to be called up 2 or 3 times though, I think that if you have done it once you should be able to opt out if you want too, as obviously lots of people don’t ever get called so there are still lots to choose from

When I did it there was a guy there who was losing money for every day he served.

I completely agree it's essentaal everyone does it, not just those who are in jobs who continue to pay or who are rich enough to absorb the cost. But no one should be seriously out of pocket surely.

That's the same with DH Pink. He also regularly gets the wrong end of the stick in group conversations - so not a really helpful juror!

His boss was impressed though - asked if I could write his letter next time he was called.