To think that some married women on here think they are better than unmarried women?

[malificent7]

After reading the thread about legal rights, marriage and birth certificates I was struck by the patronising way in which some married women spoke to those who are cohabiting or not married.
True married women have better rights but it was the way in which the relationships of unmarried women were dismissed as lesser and these women were being sneered at.

Someone told a woman who had been cohabiting that her relationship meant nothing and that if you are not married you are single.
REALLY? I am not married but I am not single. I don't even live with the guy but why is my relationship seen as less valid? Some married people hate each other and don't have the guts to leave. Some of the best love affairs involve people who live miles apart.
I don't like the fact that I have to put single on a form . Why can I not be in a relationship?

Ok, If you are married you have some legal rights and security that the unmarried have but shouldn't we question this? Why should we make vows especially if you don't believe in the laws of marriage? Also, it was originally a religious ceremony..I don't believe in God and I am not a commodity to be given away by my dad to another male.

Does it lead to stability? My dp is divorced. The marriage vows didn't stop things from falling apart.

Marriage can be a great thing but the tone in the last thread was old fashioned and practically berated women for not managing to get a man to marry them. Surely there has to be other options if you don't believe in marriage ? It is a patriarchal tradition after all to do with male prperty rights. Also, many men want pre nuptuals as they are now wise to gold digging wives.

I think you can have some marriages which have less love than some cohabiting relationships. Why is one type of relationship more valid? I find it all very old fashioned.

Judging by the number of men who don't leave their wives a dime on divorce, I am not convinced by the stability argument.

PMSL at blueberry saying I shouldn't have children because I baulk at marriage and that being prepared to get married is pretty much the most important thing when looking for a father for your children.

I looked for somebody who was a kind loving person who would be a kind loving father,somebody who had the same life values as me,somebody I'd want around my children,somebody I loved,somebody who was my friend,somebody I wanted to share children with,somebody with a good sense of humour,somebody with the same goals.......

Marriage didn't even register on my fathering qualities list, pretty sure he didn't write me off as a mother because of my reluctance to marriage either. Think we've done a pretty good job,who'd have thought eh,two unmarrieds like us being good parents.

'I would assume the term single was being used in the legal sense. I don't believe that most people who are married think any less (or have any specific feelings either way) about those who are not.'

This, from further up the thread. I posted on the other thread about rhe certificate of no impediment I had to get to marry dh in his country calling us, in our early 20s at the time, 'bachelor' and 'spinster'. Legal language is there to serve a specific purpose and doesn't take account of people's sensibilities. Some languages distinguish between 'single' as in the state of not being married and 'single' as in not in a relationship. German has 'ledig' for the first (which I believe once upon a time meant 'free'...) and 'alleinstehend' (or colloquially just 'Single' or 'solo') for the second. Nobody calls themselves 'ledig' when they are unmarried but in a relationship. English uses 'single' to cover all these states. The point people were trying to make on that thread was that 'single' has different meanings in different contexts - and that in our society, recognition of a relationship takes place by marriage, which again people are conflating with the traditional big wedding on the one side and the patriarchal baggage on the other. I really didn't see much, if any, sneering at unmarried people on that thread.

Oh and Blueberry married couples don't own committment. You can be incredibly committed but averse to marriage. Our committment has got us through all manor of peaks and troughs over the last decades. If we weren't committed we'd have gone our separate ways long ago.

Personally I wouldn’t plan a child with a man I wasn’t married to. I’ve always felt that way and honestly I do have the traditional view that children ‘should’ be brought (wherever possible) into a legally bound family where they’ll share the same surname as both parents and legally be a family unit.

I think it offers more security for the child, as it’s harder to walk away from a marriage (not impossible but still).

I also think that If you feel strongly enough about each other to bring a life into this world you should be willing to tie yourselves together legally. On a legal footing it’s very beneficial as gives the mother and child more rights and safety but also the father.

you can say all you want about it being ‘old fashioned’ or ‘unfair’ but there’s always going to be a large percentage of society who feel the way I do. I’ve read so many posts on here from unmarried women with kids who have recently been left by partners and are now facing poverty as he owned the house, they stay home and look after kids...etc. I bet those women wished they’d been married (I know they do as they openly said that).

I recognise that some situations don’t suit a marriage and that’s fine but if you’re a traditional family and there aren’t pressing reasons why you shouldn’t marry I’ll always think you should before having children.

Growing up my parents wouldn’t let me sleep over at the homes of friends with unmarried parents. This was because my mother never knew whether the father was the biological father of the kids of whether the relationship that been going for 3 months or 13 years.

I would feel basically the same now tbh. You may not agree with me but that’s how I (and a vast amount of my peer group) feel.

It’s not a religious thing at all, it’s a traditional, legal, moral thing.

Well I certainly did and so did others going by this thread.

I can see this from both sides, I'm married and love it, my bil and partner are not and that's absolutely up to them and what they want. I think to be honest they might be described as smug unmarrieds, though i still love them. However, we have to put up with little comments constantly about how they don't see the point of marriage and how it's just a piece of paper. We keep quiet, but find it a bit rude that they are judging our choice so severely. If we made comments the other way around I imagine they would be quite offended and annoyed! I love being married and to us it means a lot, but just because it's right for us that doesn't mean it is for everyone. .

It doesn't have to reduce earning power though does it? As a single parent my wages and position have moved up. People make choices. If you choose to reduce hours and therefore wages but aren't married for any reason then it's your own doing m

I do think that there remains a societal tendency to see marriage as superior to cohabiting because that was the way it was for decades, if not centuries, and that, inevitably, some of that tendency is reflected in some of the posts here. And I also think that there is still a perception of a sense of achievement for some women in being chosen for marriage, because we haven't managed to uproot these attitudes yet (and have to contend with wave after wave, coming in different guises, of backlash telling us that women's purpose is to be for men). That's why weddings are such a monstrous industry - they're still seen as the pinnacle of the bride's achievement. It's possible that some of this is getting caught up in this argument. But I think most posters on here were trying to make the point that marriage is now legal recognition functions. And tbh, there is something lovely about making that commitment publicly (and we had a very small and non-showy student shoestring wedding) and about living day to day in that commitment.

Gah. *is how legal recognition functions.

42% of marriages end in divorce and it is on the rise again. Marriage is hardly a guarantee of security. The quality of the relationship guarantees security and actually kids stuck in toxic households because couples should have long since split up is more damaging than anything. Don't push marriage,push choosing and managing relationships well.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/18/divorce-rates-increase-first-time-decade-over-50s-untie-knot/

@Pollypanda of course your relationship is no less valid.

There are plenty of reasons people choose not to get married. Getting married gives you specific rights that you may or may not want (eg for a woman taking time out to stay home with children tend to benefit hugely, those who are the main earners with their own property and DCs from previous relationships would probably do better to stay cohabiting but legally 'single' - and it's not fair to this woman to force her to follow the same rules as someone who made an active choice to get married).

Marriage doesn't have to mean changing your name, or wearing a fancy dress or anything other than showing up to a registry office and saying there's no impediment. Anyone who is smug about this obviously hasnt had much real achievement in their lives - but equally the many posters saying marriage isn't for them should be aware that by not spending an afternoon doing the above, they might be giving up a lot.

I’ve read so many posts on here from unmarried women with kids who have recently been left by partners and are now facing poverty as he owned the house

I have equally read lots of posts on here saying because the woman is unemployed or doesn’t earn enough they weren’t put on the mortgage.

Now that does need addressing.

I don’t believe in marriage but I do believe in getting my name on the deeds to my home.

Iamall

You wouldn't let your children sleep in houses with unmarried parents. Jesus the bigotry is alive and kicking.

How on earth do you know and get your children to find out? Frankly I wouldn't want my dc in a household as bigoted as yours either. So there we go.

helterskelter3

Yes, I've noticed it too. Given that marriage is by far less common than co-habiting and the divorce rate is 42% it's a bit odd really.

I’m not sure where you get that idea. According to the ONS, in 2017 there were 12.9m ‘married’ families in the U.K. compared to 3.3m ‘cohabiting’ families (though this is increasing). I only know a handful of ‘cohabiting’ families,.

I’m not making any moral judgment here, just pointing out that the facts are precisely the opposite of what you’ve written.

@Bumpitybumper if the lower earning partner is the man and he doesn't step up to do to at least 50% of the caring/house/support responsibilities then why should the woman marry or stay married to him?

They won't because they know it's stupid to.

Unfortunately I know women who have been caught out by that, and was warned long ago to be very careful who I married.

Anyway this is why I'm not married and why my male relations, who are the lower earners in their marriages, knew they have had to step up unless they wanted to be divorced once they realised their wives where on career paths to out earn them.

<a class="break-all" href="http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160106011951/www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/divorces-in-england-and-wales/2011/sty-what-percentage-of-marriages-end-in-divorce.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160106011951/www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/divorces-in-england-and-wales/2011/sty-what-percentage-of-marriages-end-in-divorce.html

Overall 42%

There will also be many who wanted get divorced and should. Marriage does not guarantee security or a better childhood.

Didn't

My partner recently had 2 stays in ICU for serious conditions. I was asked by many staff if i was his wife and when i replied no they looked at me and i could see they changed in the way they approached me about his treatment. As if i wasnt as important as his mum and dad. I felt i had to keep explaining i was his carer and partner of 16 years and it would have been better if i just said yes im the wife.

Although i recognise this would make you angry and it’s the last thing you want when your DP is in ICU, if you say you’re not married the staff have no idea on the level of commitment you have. You could have been years in a casual uncommitted relationship, or 3 weeks into a fling.

@P3onyPenny she would have had fun in my parents' households due to all the half and step siblings plus remarriages. In fact I've now met a few families like mine and the "children" aren't all under 40.

I agree. It seems to be a MN thing. I remember reading a post a couple of months ago and one poster was going on about how she was 'proud to be a mrs'. It just made me cringe.

I would love to know how your parents IAmAllAstonishmrnt knew that someone was not married?

Most of the other mothers I have met at the school gate I have no idea whether they were married or not and vice versa. It never came up in conversation.

Did your parents ban you from being friends with children who’s parents were divorced or widowed. Or those that remarried because the father or mother was not the biological parent

And you and your peer group feel the same.

Do you expect people to prove their provenance so your children can play together by running around waving their marriage certificates and their children’s birth certificate

Your children are going to either be very short of friends or you live in a place where no one ever comes to and no one ever leaves.

I would have to rack my brains to think of the parents in dd’s class at secondary school to think of a couple who were actually married.

Would that include same sex marriages or are you only wanting your children to mix with heterosexual married couples.

The sneering cuts both ways though - I have come across unmarried couples who definitely give off the vibe that they are far too cool, unique, right on and special to be married like the boring mundanes that are. Cringe. The reality is no one is much interested. Like those first time parents that make a huge song and dance about their baby's sex.

I don't see sneering, just exasperation.

The threads on here where women leave themselves in a precarious financial position are quite numerous. Their only argument on why they are not married and have protected themselves legally by doing so is "Well, I love 'im" type response.

I couldn’t agree more about the sneering attitude.
I wouldn’t have children without being in a committed relationship. I am in a committed relationship if just doesn’t involve a marriage. We see marriage as a religious thing primarily, which neither of us has any interest in.
And for all those concerned I could be left destitute with a child, I have my own property and high salary and I’d be fine, thanks.

I co habit with my partner, we have no intention of ever marrying it does not make me less of a life partner to him. He has ensured that if anything happens to him my daughter and I get everything.

The problem is nobody is better than anybody else, at the end of the day it is a piece of paper. That piece of paper will not stop a husband from cheating on you, leaving you, throwing you out on your arse or leaving you with nothing in the event of their demise (which sometimes could be helped along ;)).