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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU benefits of marriage without marriage

369 replies

serbska · 30/08/2018 09:41

Yes another persona complaining LIFE ISN'T FAIR because they can't access a benefit for married people, because they weren't married.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-45348176/bereavement-allowance-widowed-mum-on-why-her-kids-are-penalised

If you want to be free and easy, stay as DPs. If you want the legal protection and benefits of married, get married. It costs a few quid down the registry office.

OP posts:
theipadsavedmylife · 30/08/2018 22:36

I meant it's a joke to keep getting married over and over to protect yourself.

I do think this ruling is right.

AynRandTheObjectivist · 30/08/2018 22:42

Aside from being fairer it would stop the spite of a few resenting others and wagging their finger for absolutely no good reason.

It's very tiresome in this debate when married people are always accused of being smug, resentful, finger wagging etc, just for explaining their thought process and reasons to marry.

I did not actually make a life changing commitment because of you.

adaline · 30/08/2018 22:53

What I don't understand, is why people think they should receive a benefit of being married when they chose not to marry?

Being married is known to bring certain benefits. If you want those benefits, then all you need to do is sign the contract. People shouldn't automatically be given one of the many rights of marriage just because their partner sadly dies.

Get married if you want those rights, it's what millions of people do in order to protect themselves and their children.

PrimalLass · 30/08/2018 23:01

It has been covered over and over in this thread.

AynRandTheObjectivist · 30/08/2018 23:04

I wonder how many people now celebrating this result have previously been on threads about the potential advantages of marriage, pooh-poohing the sum as irrelevant...

This benefit is a bit different to some others because it's based on the past NI contributions of someone other than the recipient, rather than income as most of them are, or one's own contributions. It only being available to married couples made a certain amount of sense in the context of the history of the benefit, but I think we are now moving towards something that's seen as going with the child specifically. And I think that does more accurately reflect modern life really.

Now I'm usually rather unsympathetic to selfish special snowflaking me not having to go to a registry office is more important than other people being able to cohabit without a forced legal contract. But I don't actually think this benefit falls into that category. To me it looks a bit different to that.

This is an excellent post.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 30/08/2018 23:06

AynRandTheObjectivist "Oh for fuck's sake. You're not even trying."
I think joining the marriage club, where it was until recently (in historical terms) legal to rape your wife, is not a club that I ever want to be part of. Even if it has now been 'reformed' in some countries.

But no poster has yet explained why marriage has to be connected in anyway to a contract between people to access state benefits / human rights (other than religious historical reasons oc).

Just disconnect marriage from the contract and the problem is solved. Why are some people so desperate to attach marriage to this contract?

Bluelady · 30/08/2018 23:08

Perhaps because it's called a marriage contract? That wasn't hard, was it?

bananafish81 · 30/08/2018 23:12

Just disconnect marriage from the contract and the problem is solved. Why are some people so desperate to attach marriage to this contract?

What would you want the contract to be / say?

I asked this question before, but no one has answered

If marriage was renamed would that solve the problem? Same thing, just change the name to 'legal togetherness' or 'sparkly unicorn union' or whatever. Would that do the trick?

What would a not-marriage contract have that would make it less objectionable than a marriage contract?

butterflysugarbaby · 30/08/2018 23:21

Want the benefits and perks of marriage?

GET.

MARRIED.

All these UNMARRIED couples demanding 'equal rights' and the same benefits that married couples have are really REALLY fucking me off. Hmm

Seriously, who do they think they are?!

And I have to ask WHY do they not get married?

MAKES ME FEWMMMM! Angry

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 30/08/2018 23:23

Just disconnect marriage from the contract and the problem is solved
What contract are we talking about? The marriage contract?? 🙄
Give me the benefits of the marriage contract but I don't want to get married so shove the rest of it up your arse? I don't think that's a goer...

Walkingdeadfangirl · 31/08/2018 00:52

What would you want the contract to be / say?
A simple "we are in a committed relationship" would probably be adequate.

If marriage was renamed would that solve the problem?
With a few other tweaks yes, we just dont want to be part of what is called 'marriage'. Partnerships, sparkly unicorns, legal togetherness etc are all fine.

What would a not-marriage contract have that would make it less objectionable than a marriage contract? Yes, just simply that it is not a marriage contract is enough.

Now maybe some posters could explain why they are so desperate to continue connecting 'marriage' to benefits and human rights. Is it a matter of validating their own marriage? Trying to enforce their perceived religious privilege perhaps? It just makes not sense in the 21st century to deny people rights just because they refuse to join your chosen club.

bananafish81 · 31/08/2018 01:23

If marriage was renamed would that solve the problem?^^
With a few other tweaks yes, we just dont want to be part of what is called 'marriage'. Partnerships, sparkly unicorns, legal togetherness etc are all fine

OK so it's literally a naming thing? If the process was near identical, if it was otherwise indistinguishable from what is currently termed 'marriage', but simply renamed, then that'd be OK?

Materially nothing would change, the 'club' would be substantially no different, just called something different?

Now maybe some posters could explain why they are so desperate to continue connecting 'marriage' to benefits and human rights. Is it a matter of validating their own marriage? Trying to enforce their perceived religious privilege perhaps? It just makes not sense in the 21st century to deny people rights just because they refuse to join your chosen club.

There's different issues though

There's 'i want to opt into a legal partnership that just isn't called marriage"

And "I think cohabiting couples should have their partnerships legally recognised without having to opt in to signing any legal commitment'

Objecting to the club's name is one thing.

But imposing contractual obligations onto a couple by default, without the couple having opted in, is what most posters object to.

If you want to insure your home, but don't like the name 'insurance', and want to be able to take out a 'sparkly union policy', and sign the legal documentation to agree to the rights and responsibilities of that policy, that's one thing.

But saying that you'd like to have the benefits of an insurance policy automatically applied without ever having signed up for one, is what most people are arguing against

Renaming the club seems like a massive endeavour just for a branding exercise, but it's making membership of the club opt-out rather than opt-in, that's the issue being challenged

oldsockeater · 31/08/2018 01:44

Can't see how allowing bereaved cohabiting parents to claim a benefit to partially replace some of their deceased partner's earnings, has anything to do with people ending up 'married' against their will. If you don't want the money you don't have to claim it. Those who expressly don't want to marry their partner because they aren't the father of their children won't be entitled to it anyway, because the dead person has to be the parent of your children as well as living in the same house.
In any case it would not affect inheritance.

headstone · 31/08/2018 04:52

I thought civil partnership was now available for heterosexual couples not wanting the be married.

Graphista · 31/08/2018 06:06

As I said on another thread on this story

It's an unfair contradiction in current uk law. That wrt state benefits people are treated 'as if they are married' when it is in the govts favour to do so, and not when it's in the recipients favour.

I'm all for 'if you want the rights of marriage get married' but with state benefits the govt acts unfairly.

This has become particularly true with UC, where if you live with someone it's a joint claim, perfect for financially and otherwise abusive partners to enable that abuse AND trap the abused partner. And that's before you even get into the despicable 'rape clause'.

So for that reason I think it's fair that if the govt treated them as if they were married while he was alive, that they have to do so after his death too

If the govt wants to not pay benefits in these circumstances based on the lack of marriage, then those living together and claiming benefits should not have to have their partners income and/or savings/assets inc in their claim nor be required to make a joint claim of not married in the case of UC.

Unfair for govt to try and have it all ways.

RuggerHug this case was not about widows pensions, but frankly even if it was, what I said above ALSO applies to that.

Also appalled that the allowance has now been scrapped. Heartless decision that will save very little money.

Op that you think that bereaved children should lose out because their parents chose not to marry (a decision they have no influence on) is also heartless.

Shoelaces & aaaahfuck - a couple recently won a court case regarding straight couples having cp's BUT as I and others have said on other threads re marriage - it's ridiculously unnecessary. Cp's only came into being as a way to placate homosexual couples who wanted to be able to marry. When asked those posters who objected to marriage but wanted cp's were unable to give reasons for this that weren't based on misconceptions about marriage. Why don't you want to marry?

"Seeing many of the practices which still occur in modern weddings I'm genuinely not sure the resulting marriage can be an equal relationship. I mean not giving a speech as a woman but letting your husband and your dad speak" such ignorance! There's absolutely NOTHING legally attached to marriage that says you have to do ANY of the 'patriarchal practices' all that's legally required is the notification to the community (so if someone knows eg you're still married to someone else, or that you're trying to marry your brother, they can report it), the parts of the vows that make the contract legal ( that you know of no legal reason why you can't marry, that you give your free consent to marry X person), the signing of the register (which forms a record of the legal contract). Being 'given away', exchanging rings, additional vows, changing name, changing title, speeches at the reception... - all optional.

"You shouldn't be able to cherry pick the advantages of whichever system suits you best" surely that sense of fairness should ALSO apply to the govt though?

"If it is so patriarchal, why do so many men refuse to do it?" Excellent point! Also agree that rather than patriarchal it actually gives women and children protections, not only in case of separation but also (as evident by this thread) in cases of critical illness and death.

Inequality in a het relationship will exist whether or not the couple are married - because that is caused by the people in the relationship NOT the legal status of the relationship. Even a cursory look at the relationship board will show you that!

PrimalLass · 31/08/2018 06:27

All these UNMARRIED couples demanding 'equal rights' and the same benefits that married couples have are really REALLY fucking me off. Seriously, who do they think they are?! And I have to ask WHY do they not get married?

Why does it REALLY fuck you off that some women and children are disadvantaged further when they are bereaved? That says far more about you.

PrimalLass · 31/08/2018 07:07

Actually it should really fuck you off, not that someone is being done about the disparity. The case was about this benefit, not anything else.

adaline · 31/08/2018 07:24

Why are some people so desperate to attach marriage to this contract?

Because it's called a marriage contract? That's what it is!

brokenharbour · 31/08/2018 07:33

@Graphista excellent post.

Cerseilannisterinthesnow · 31/08/2018 07:35

So do those who think you shouldn’t have to get married to get the benefits of a marriage also think they should be entitled to the marriage tax breaks? What about if they split up after a few years, do they think they should be entitled to their partners stuff or a fair split in finances etc like in a divorce? Where does it stop? That is maybe one of the reasons the rules are kept different to stop everyone just splitting up with partners after 10 years or whatever and taking every partner for everything

We are married and we didn’t have all the fuss, yes we got married in a church but had the reception in a hall done by ourselves etc was about £4000 all in. We had 3 children together and I wanted the protection for us all, my Dh has life insurance I probably wouldn’t have had any right to that had we not been married, I wouldn’t have been his next of kin his mother would have been, so if he was ill I’d have no say on his treatment etc. It is so much more than just about money

allthgoodusernamesaretaken · 31/08/2018 07:40

I'd agree that simply living together and having children together shouldn't bring the benefits of marriage. As a widow, my best way of protecting what I'd like to pass on to my children is by never getting married again. Having already lost my husband, it would be pretty shit if the law told me I couldn't never share a home with a partner agin should I choose to without giving my husbands legacy to another man instead of his children

This ^^

oldsockeater · 31/08/2018 08:03

Surely even if married you can make a will that leaves everything to your children? Or would that not be legal?

P3onyPenny · 31/08/2018 08:14

Re the tax break. No because said break is ridiculous and archaic. Nobody should get it,that needs to go too. ''Twas only brought in by the Tories to suck up to their voters.

A lot of what you have said is wrong and irrelevant. I am the named beneficiary on all my dp's life insurance policies and VV. He is always named as next of kin and when I was blue lighted to HD he dealt with all the decisions. Aside from being named my parents were 5 hours away. All of which is irrelevant to this issue as it is about a benefit. Thankfully in this country you don't generally need to be married to receive benefits and we don't as a rule penalise children because of their parents' decisions. Thankfully the unfairness re money going to support bereaved children is being recognised.

AynRandTheObjectivist · 31/08/2018 08:23

joining the marriage club, where it was until recently (in historical terms) legal to rape your wife

This nonsensical "point" always comes up too. Yes it is shameful how long it took to rectify that, but it's been sorted for 27 years. You're an idiot to reject something that protects you just because it didn't protect you when Take That were starting out. I thought average age of a first time bride is around 26? Rape within marriage has not been legal within their lifetimes.

And as before....I assume that you will refuse university degrees and parliamentary proceedings because they once excluded women?

P3onyPenny · 31/08/2018 08:27

No Anya but you seemed to think your "lifechanging decision" should have an impact and entitle your children more than other bereaved children.

It really shouldn't.

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