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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU benefits of marriage without marriage

369 replies

serbska · 30/08/2018 09:41

Yes another persona complaining LIFE ISN'T FAIR because they can't access a benefit for married people, because they weren't married.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-45348176/bereavement-allowance-widowed-mum-on-why-her-kids-are-penalised

If you want to be free and easy, stay as DPs. If you want the legal protection and benefits of married, get married. It costs a few quid down the registry office.

OP posts:
ExFury · 31/08/2018 11:54

I'm trying to think of the legal benefits I would have had from marrying the DC's dad and I just can't think of any.

The majority of the benefits are if things go badly wrong.

Yes you can plan for some of them with wills etc, but when my friend was widowed at 26 she automatically was his beneficiary because he hadn’t sorted a will yet and the bereavement benefits lump sum, which still comes with the new version of widowed parents allowance, paid a large chunk toward his funeral.

ExFury · 31/08/2018 11:55

Some people are better off without that automatic entitlement. Which is why marriage and a legal relationship should never be automatic by living together imo.

AynRandTheObjectivist · 31/08/2018 12:46

Accusations of intellectual dishonesty from someone whose username references Ayn Rand?

Yes. So far, you are the fourth person to point out that my posts do not fit with my username, and not one of you has realised that that is because it's an utter pisstake.

But you're the first person to do it who is not (I presume) a man.

AynRandTheObjectivist · 31/08/2018 12:53

I'm trying to think of the legal benefits I would have had from marrying the DC's dad and I just can't think of any.

If your relationship stays strong forever and your wills are watertight, there might not be that many (though there is IHT and a couple of other things. This ruling doesn't actually overturn anything, it's just paved the way for the possibility.).

But that's not when you need protection. You need protection when things go belly up, which they very sadly can. Look at the Relationships board on any given day. It's full of women who never thought they'd be where they are right now.

I absolutely respect people's right never to marry - there are times when it would be a bad idea - which is precisely my problem with 'if you cohabit for X years' alternative. It fucks over people's rights to cohabit and not marry. Nobody should be entered into a legal contract by stealth, it should be something that you choose to do.

The law has no way of knowing whether two people both want their relationship to be legitimised, unless they have legitimised it. People who say "well we've been together for 40 years" are missing the point. It's not about how in love you are, it's simply whether both of you have willingly walked into the office and said, "We want to commit legally to each other and legalise our relationship". If one person doesn't want to do that (or both), there's probably a reason and it's not for the law to make the decision for them.

In the case of child-related benefits such as this particular one, though, there does seem to be a case for reviewing them. Once again, PaulDacreRimsGeese made an excellent post about it.

AynRandTheObjectivist · 31/08/2018 13:01

Bah, 'legalised', not 'legitimised'. Sorry about that.

Graphista · 31/08/2018 13:02

Why I was better off having been married to dds dad...

Easier to make child maintenance claim

If we'd not been married I wouldn't have got half the assets at time of separation - wasn't much, less than £15k but enough to get a car and some items for new house.

Meant that until he married 2nd wife if he'd died I'd have got his death benefits.

Because dd was legitimate, if he'd died after remarrying but before retiring from army, she would have got a Death benefit payment.

When he retires fully I get a portion of his pension. Not a huge amount but better than nothing.

Made it easier to prove I had become single for benefits/tax credits.

Made it easier to freeze bank accounts and have bank provide evidence of assets at time of split.

If I hadn't been married I'd have been REALLY screwed instead of just moderately so.

Even exh benefited - he uses it as an excuse not to marry wife 2 for quite some time!

AynRandTheObjectivist · 31/08/2018 13:18

But at the end of the day that is what it boils down to,however emotive you think that is.

No, it is not. It boils down to whether or not people should have legal contracts put on them by stealth, and whether or not they should have the right to live together for as long as they like without a legal commitment. Perhaps you think differently to me on that one.

With regards to benefits that are child related, as I have already said several times, there does seem to be a case for reviewing them. But that is not the same as effectively forcing marriage. Which you would know if you actually read anything before making up intellectually dishonest, over emotive bollocks.

I think it is actually quite distasteful to keep saying 'bereaved children' to try to force an intellectually dishonest point.

AynRandTheObjectivist · 31/08/2018 13:36

I remember in one of the other incarnations of this debate, there was a poster who agreed that she was left financially shafted when her relationship broke down, but she still preferred that to having to go through the stress and time consuming energy of a divorce. She preferred just to be able to up and leave.

I wouldn't have felt that way, but she did and she needed to retain the right to do that.

PrimalLass · 31/08/2018 13:37

With regards to benefits that are child related, as I have already said several times, there does seem to be a case for reviewing them. But that is not the same as effectively forcing marriage.

Has anyone on this thread advocated that though? The thread is about one benefit that has inconsistent conditions compared to others.

AynRandTheObjectivist · 31/08/2018 13:47

Has anyone on this thread advocated that though?

Perhaps not explicitly, but PaulDacreRimsGeese made an excellent point when she said: "This benefit is a bit different to some others because it's based on the past NI contributions of someone other than the recipient, rather than income as most of them are, or one's own contributions. It only being available to married couples made a certain amount of sense in the context of the history of the benefit, but I think we are now moving towards something that's seen as going with the child specifically. And I think that does more accurately reflect modern life really."

I thought this was an absolutely excellent point. I reposted it in full and it's made me really think.

I'm afraid these debates do annoy me. I'm married, I had reasons for it, and if I explain what they are, then inevitably I am accused of being "smug", "resentful", "spiteful", compared to being a Ku Klux Klanner or of cackling with glee as I happily fuck over orphans.

It gets tiresome.

sunglasses123 · 31/08/2018 13:56

Ayn’s Posts are right. What is a partner? Someone you met last night or have been with for 20 years like my DIS. She insists she has common law rights. Her DP who she has been with for over 20 years has 4 kids by various women. No wills but the grown up children and the various ex partners will come out of the woodwork when he passes. He is not in the best of health. I have told her to get married many times but apparently it’s not her thing....

PrimalLass · 31/08/2018 14:19

It gets pretty fucking tiresome to be told you were stupid to have kids without getting married too. And that it's easy to fix. Not necessarily. Personally I now either have to force my DP into it, leave him, or put up with it. Fantastic. I just love these threads.

bananafish81 · 31/08/2018 14:35

Out of interest, does anyone on this thread who's anti 'marriage' but would like an alternative legal contract to offer equivalent rights and responsibilities under the law, have a legal cohabitation agreement in place?

Graphista · 31/08/2018 14:40

PrimalLass - it is a choice though.

Perfectly OK to make an informed and genuinely free choice. But too many women give in to men who won't marry them but will live with them and expect those women to bear them children and run their home without any security in the event of the man's critical illness, death or just leaving them.

I made a conscious decision not to have children without getting married after seeing a relative go through sheer hell due to her partner & father of their 2 DC dying young, intestate and with no life assurance either. She couldn't even access their joint bank account to pay the bills! Lost their home. Awful.

PrimalLass · 31/08/2018 14:42

PrimalLass - it is a choice though.

Did I say it wasn't?

serbska · 31/08/2018 14:48

Yabu Op. Dp and I together 20 years. Learn to spell.

@Doobydoo ooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh get you. Yes, because being able to spell is going to fucking save you from paying additional IHT because you didn't actually get married. Nice one! You are THE winner in life! Gold star to you.

[Actually @@Doobydoo no one is saying your relationship is any less of a relationship, but you aren't married and you don't have the same legal rights - fact ]

OP posts:
Doobydoo · 31/08/2018 14:57

Grin do calm down.

LeroyJenkins · 31/08/2018 14:58

Personally I now either have to force my DP into it, leave him, or put up with it.

Well those have technically been your options for as long as you have been together really? Those the 3 things that happen, get married, don't get married or split up? What else is there?

PrimalLass · 31/08/2018 15:00

Yes you are so right and I am so wrong and stupid. As said lots of times on this thread.

It feels great. Even better with the smug tone.

Doesn't mean my kids should be penalised and lose out though. Which is the point.

serbska · 31/08/2018 15:01

It gets pretty fucking tiresome to be told you were stupid to have kids without getting married too. And that it's easy to fix. Not necessarily. Personally I now either have to force my DP into it, leave him, or put up with it. Fantastic. I just love these threads.

@PrimalLass are you aware of the implication, and happy not being married though? If so that is fine surely? It is only an issue if you do want the legal protections but your DP is refusing to get married.

In which case, in the infamous MN words, you have a DP problem not a marriage contract problem,

OP posts:
bananafish81 · 31/08/2018 15:08

Personally I now either have to force my DP into it, leave him, or put up with it

I'm a bit confused Primal - you said in an earlier post that you didn't want the benefits of marriage

Are you now saying that you do (but your DP doesn't want the rights and responsibilities of marriage)?

If you do want to get married but your DP doesn't, though it can't replicate the financial benefits defined by the state, a cohabitation agreement can address some of the issues about what would happen in the event of the relationship breaking down

Would that be something you'd consider?

PrimalLass · 31/08/2018 15:08

Aw thanks. That's helpful.

For the umpteen time, I'm fine. I own half my house. I have a business and a job. I have a civil service pension. DP is fine. That still doesn't stop me being annoyed that we are a household in the eyes of the law to penalise us but not to 'reward' (wrong word) us.

I'm not sure how many times I have to say that.

I don't actually care that much about marriage as I've just seen my parents go through a horrible and very expensive divorce. I do get v annoyed when being called stupid and an idiot on threads like this, and being told it's easy to just sort out and pop to the registry office. Life is complicated.

PrimalLass · 31/08/2018 15:10

Honestly I really do not need anyone's advice. But less judgey shit, less name calling, and fewer inconstancies from the government would be grand.

PrimalLass · 31/08/2018 15:12

I'm a bit confused Primal - you said in an earlier post that you didn't want the benefits of marriage

The point was that this particular benefit should not be a benefit of marriage. It should be for bereaved children and their career.

PrimalLass · 31/08/2018 15:13

*carer