To think the government should subside the wages of nursery/preschool staff?

[Bumpitybumper]

I am absolutely shocked about how badly nursery and preschool workers are paid and really feel that the government should intervene in this area in order to raise standards and make these jobs more desirable for talented, motivated individuals.

The current system just doesn't seem to work as SAHPs are the minority as more people need or choose to work. This obviously creates increasing demand for childcare places and therefore staff but these positions are poorly paid, under valued and lack career progression. Most parents either can't afford to pay higher fees and fund higher wages or don't want to as they want to turn a "profit" from working even if they are in relatively low/averagely paid jobs.

I think if most parents were honest we would hope and expect the staff at our childcare providers to be motivated and diligent but if we had adult children with these traits I think we would be encouraging them to enter other professions with more opportunities and better pay. Surely we therefore realistically are looking at a situation where the majority of childcare workers will be those who are lacking skills and motivation and have no better opportunities (and as almost every other field pays more for a comparative level of responsibility there are a lot of "better" opportunities out there).

This seems madness when the vast majority of parents would rank their children as the most important people in their lives and would recognise that their care in the formative years is really important. AIBU unreasonable to think the government must step in here?

I have a BA degree and work in a nursery. Yabu to assume we are all unskilled and unmotivated. Most people in this job do it for their passion not money. I left a career to train for this job.

Isnt it cosy? I assume it will come from tax. Are you ready to have your tax bill hiked?

AnnieAnoniMoose
If you want childcare staff to be better paid, then pay more for your childcare. The government (other tax payers!) isn’t responsible for your choice to have children.

Absolutely.

Your choice to have a child, your choice to put it into childcare, your responsibility to pay for it.

I'd love state run nurseries - lots of other countries have them and they work very well. Both my DC had an absolutely amazing nursery teacher, she is highly skilled and puts a huge amount of effort into her work and should be paid accordingly.

@wineandcheeseplease
I absolute don't assume that all nursery workers are all unmotivated or unqualified however I would think that if we don't improve the pay and conditions of these workers then a large proportion of them will be exactly this. Other posters have already said that they or their colleagues have left the profession due to the pay and lack of progression for talented, motivated staff.

These uber minted nursery owners are a very small proportion. Thinking of the childcare business owners I know/know of:
-one has built up an impressive chain from scratch. Doing fairly well - because they have 5 (I think) good sized nurseries so even with a relatively small profit margin the volume still makes for a healthy income. They also must employ at least 50 people with all the work and responsibility that goes with that.

-one lives in a very nice house, nice car etc; childcare is a second career and the nice stuff was already owned. Business barely making any money (and they're a major corner cutter - I don't deny they exist!)
-another has nice car, Audi...and a higher earning spouse who pays for it!

If you build up a good childcare business with several sites - taking all the risks that come with it over the years - then you can make a decent income but it's nothing like the figures some people imagine it to be. Not even close. I've had plenty of people do the back of a fag packet maths and conclude that we must be totally coining it in. They're invariably miles off.

It's not the exception around here. There's six nurseries within a five minute walk from me. With the exception of two, they're all staffed with minimum wage teenagers, the owners absolutely are creaming off the top.

I struggled to find a decent place for DD because as bumpity rightly says 'the majority of childcare workers will be those who are lacking skills and motivation and have no better opportunities' and that's what's happened. If you pay crap money, that's what you attract.

It's not good enough IMO. They all charge £65-£90 per day and have waiting lists. I agree with whoever said if you privatise childcare, this is what happens. Children and their development are not the priority.

They do by heavily subsidising childcare and encouraging people to have kids. Without either there would be no childcare industry.

@SilentEm564 I think you’ve missed out that where your nursery is open 12 hours a day that’s 60 hours a week. That is roughly 1.5 nursery workers for those hours, so you need 1.5 full time staff for every 3 children.

So if you’re paying minimum wage (£7.83) + 12% holiday pay + employer’s NIC and employers pension (say another 12%, I know this isn’t a perfect calculation) you’re at about £10 per hour.

£10 per hour x 60 hours x 52 weeks = £31,200 to staff those 3 babies with annual income of £5,100 x 12 = £61,200.

So over 50% of your income has gone on immediate staffing of the room, ignoring other staff needed in management and food prep/housekeeping.

@bumpitybumper

But lots of parents can't or don't want to be SAHPs. Do you think these parents should be forced to be SAHPs or be forced to put their children in childcare with underpaid, undervalued staff?

No. As I have already said..

Should you wish to use childcare, fine, your choice, but you should be paying for that choice. 0-4 do not need to be ‘in school’ they need to be cared for by loving, caring people. This does not require a degree

I am noy asking because you have offended me as I am a SAHM who is lucky enough to have a toddler in a preschool with fantastic staff however I think the amount they are paid for the job they do is nothing short of scandalous. Nobody could live on that salary! I also think that people should have the choice to return to work if they should so wish and for this to be a good option then they need good childcare options

Then you should be paying more if you think they are underpaid. Why should other people be paying for you to choose to put your child in pre school? You don’t even work and you want tax payers to fund your childcare. Give me strength.

If you CHOOSE to put YOUR child in nursery care, fine, YOUR decision, but YOU should pay for that. You should pay enough so that people are not underpaid. You should treat them well in all respects so they don’t feel undervalued.

Nanny, childminder, nursery whatever. The parents should pay if they want care for their preschoolers. It is already partly funded, to ask for more is selfish. There are other people in society who need money, people who have not chosen their situation (bereaved single parents, parents of disabled children, carers of people of all ages...I could go on).

🙄

94% of children who achieve a good level of development at age five go on to achieve the expected levels for reading at key stage 1, and they are five times more likely to achieve the highest level

Children do not need ‘care providers’ to achieve a good level of development.

pupils who start off in the bottom 20% of attainment at age five are six times more likely to be in the bottom 20% at key stage 1 compared to their peers

Quite possibly. But they don’t need ‘care providers’, just engaged parents.

Bad childcare between 0-4 could potentially have a big impact in the longer term

Of course. Therefore look after them yourself or choose your childcare wisely.

NONE of that has anything to do with children in nursery doing ‘better’.

Do we think the ages 0-4 don't matter?

No, we think it’s matters enormously, which is why (IMO) parents should be providing that care or be prepared to pay for someone to do that. It’s not a reason for other people to pay for that care.

0-4 year olds need a caring person to look after them, engage with them etc. They do not need someone with a degree.

They just don’t.

The biggest problem is the differential between staff. If the Level 2 or even unqualified staff are on minimum wage, the Level 3 staff are on minimum wage, the Level 4 and degree level qualified staff are on minimum wage, what is the motivation?

In many places the early years staff do the cleaning because a cleaner would expect higher pay.

I am not sure of the answer though.

sarahani

I struggled to find a decent place for DD because as bumpity rightly says 'the majority of childcare workers will be those who are lacking skills and motivation and have no better opportunities' and that's what's happened. If you pay crap money, that's what you attract

It's not good enough IMO. They all charge £65-£90 per day and have waiting lists. I agree with whoever said if you privatise childcare, this is what happens. Children and their development are not the priority

Children do not need pre school care, PARENTS need their preschoolers looked after if they choose to work. There’s a huge difference.

If you CHOOSE to use childcare, then CHOOSE childcare that is good quality and be prepared to pay accordingly. Don’t pay 5/8ths of sod all and expect high quality care. Like with anything else
In life.

Children and their development are not the priority

...that’s a massively sweeping statement and I find it offensive on the behalf of childcare providers. Many do their bloody best despite poor pay & resources, which PARENTS should be paying for if they are delegating this (or part of this) responsibility to others.

0-4’s are very important little people, if you choose to have them, then you’re choosing to look after them, and when you choose not to, you need to pay carers properly to do that for you - not expect others to pay that for you.

I think there must be quite a lot of variation between areas. My DD attends two different nurseries, both of which I rate highly. Neither is staffed by indifferent teenagers. I don’t think I pay enough for the quality of care provided. My DD would be far worse off at home with me.

@AnnieAnoniMoose
I think you live in an alternative universe to mine where all parents can afford to either be SAHPs themselves or pay enough for childcare that workers would recieve a fair wage. I am a SAHM myself but know lots of parents that absolutely have to work in order to make ends meet and cannot afford to top up wages nursery workers wages when they are just scraping by themselves. Should all these people not be allowed to be parents and only those who are financially well off be able to have children? You do realise that's what you are insinuating in your post?

I honestly don't know how you can justify a situation where cleaners of nurseries and preschools are getting paid more than the staff that work there. You can't seriously be arguing this won't be affecting standards and ultimately children's development and wellbeing? Many of the staff may well be doing their best despite the poor conditions and pay but the best, most competent people will most likely steer clear of this field altogether. You may not need a degree to be a fantastic nursery worker but you will certainly need skills that would have a greater value outside of this particular sector.

No alternative universe, simply advocating responsibility for ones choices in life. Why do you expect other people to pay to raise children you chose to have?

0-4 children need care, not ‘education’, two parents should be able to arrange this between them, or pay for that care. If not, then wait a bit before having children, have fewer children, see if family can help...but don’t keep demanding more & more from the government to fund your life choices, bitching that the staff you leave your children with aren’t good enough or are underpaid.

My Dad changed career when I was tiny and for a few years financially this was a backward step, my Mum worked evenings so that between them they could look after us and make ends meet, just. What they didn’t do was whinge that the government wasn’t funding their choices.

Not sure why you’ve gone off on one about cleaners, I never mentioned cleaners, let alone argued about them? 🤷🏻‍♀️

Which sector do you imagine would pay more than the childcare sector, for the skills actually required to look after 0-4 year olds?

Annie you seemed to have totally missed the point.

Bumpity I agree with you. Cleaners are paid more than childcare workers in part because looking after children isn't valued as highly but society. Higher pay would help solve the problem of minimum wage for all childcare workers regardless if their education/level and experience which is shocking and crap in equal measures.

I actually would support subsidising wages in certain areas such as childcare, nursing, care assistants, TAs and other roles where the job is to the benefit of society as a whole.

I'd probably expect high standards of regulation, minimum competency, qualifications etc but yes I think there are roles that we need people to do and we should be making those roles more attractive to people as a career choice.

If these jobs paid a decent wage then those doing them would be paying tax, have more disposable income to spend in the economy and would presumably be less likely to need top up benefits.

Re childcare I know some people take the view "you chose to have children so you should either pay or give up work" but that's pretty short sighted IMO.

Women (and it's mostly women) stepping out of the workforce for 3/4 years impacts employers who need to pay for and train new staff, is far more likely to mean a lower earning household needing other top up benefits (so while not paying for childcare your taxes are still being spent) and long term leaves women on lower incomes with less pension provision, therefore more reliant on the state down the line.

In the case of relationship breakdown/single parent families this can result in people being dependent on the state long term because of poor employment prospects and prohibitive childcare costs - full circle!

I'd also point out that not every preschool child has a devoted parent taking them for forest walks, reading stories, baking cakes and stimulating their imagination! I know children who have come on in leaps and bounds once they got their free nursery hours because at home they were sat in front of a tv all day...

"Which sector do you imagine would pay more than the childcare sector, for the skills actually required to look after 0-4 year olds?"

Well I know a few Early Years Practitioners moving to dog walking etc, it pays much better and is much less stressful.

Re childcare I know some people take the view "you chose to have children so you should either pay or give up work" but that's pretty short sighted IMO.

How can fact be short sighted?
It often astounds me how many people equate having children to finding good childcare.
They come with free childcare in the form of parents.
I think if you can afford childcare you don't need others who can't afford it to sub you.

After ALL the posts I’ve read on here absoloutley slamming the price of childcare (I assume your post applies to all nursery’s including private) this is completely hilarious.

So let me get this very clear, as parents you want cheap, affordable childcare so you can afford to heat your homes and buy groceries, but you also want nursery staff to be paid living wages?

I agree the wages are terrible and attract a majority of staff who DGAF! That’s why I won’t put my kids in nursery. But come on, you can’t conolain about the insane cost of childcare with one breath and the unfair wages of the staff in the other!

@IAmAllAstonishment
But come on, you can’t conolain about the insane cost of childcare with one breath and the unfair wages of the staff in the other!
Can't you see that this is the whole reason why I am suggesting the state intervenes as otherwise the two concepts are contradictory? If lots of parents can actually afford to pay more then there is no way that staff could be paid more to raise standards without money coming from a third party.

It's not a groundbreaking concept that the government should step in to subsidise important services that would be difficult for individuals to afford, just look at education for older children or the NHS.

@RomanyRoots
But some families are realistically never going to be able to afford to have a SAHP OR pay enough for childcare that it would fund a living wage for nursery staff so what would you suggest for these people? Don't have children at all despite being potentially dedicated, loving parents that are just stuck in job or careers (ironically like a nursery nurse) that may be socially important but don't pay well?

Sorry I've just quickly skimmed some of the comments here, but I agree with you, OP. Nursery workers are some of the most important people a child is ever going to spend time with and to my mind they should be paid accordingly.

0-4 children need care, not ‘education’

I find this remark extraordinary. We learn more in the first couple of years of our lives than they do in all the rest. Ok, it is not formal teaching, but being informal requires a lot more skill and awareness.

It's interesting to see this thread when others complain that childcare is too expensive ...