To think the government should subside the wages of nursery/preschool staff?

[Bumpitybumper]

I am absolutely shocked about how badly nursery and preschool workers are paid and really feel that the government should intervene in this area in order to raise standards and make these jobs more desirable for talented, motivated individuals.

The current system just doesn't seem to work as SAHPs are the minority as more people need or choose to work. This obviously creates increasing demand for childcare places and therefore staff but these positions are poorly paid, under valued and lack career progression. Most parents either can't afford to pay higher fees and fund higher wages or don't want to as they want to turn a "profit" from working even if they are in relatively low/averagely paid jobs.

I think if most parents were honest we would hope and expect the staff at our childcare providers to be motivated and diligent but if we had adult children with these traits I think we would be encouraging them to enter other professions with more opportunities and better pay. Surely we therefore realistically are looking at a situation where the majority of childcare workers will be those who are lacking skills and motivation and have no better opportunities (and as almost every other field pays more for a comparative level of responsibility there are a lot of "better" opportunities out there).

This seems madness when the vast majority of parents would rank their children as the most important people in their lives and would recognise that their care in the formative years is really important. AIBU unreasonable to think the government must step in here?

@SilentEm564 The rent on a premises like that will be HUGE then. Unless they own it but they'd have a serious mortgage instead. I'm in a smallish town in Gloucestershire and a small shop (one room up, one room down, one toilet, small kitchenette) not even in the main shopping areas can be £10k per annum. And think how often toys and things will get damaged or broken and need to be replaced.

@Bumpitybumper So are lots of non-parents, struggling, actually. The state IS contributing. You just want MORE from them. Thing is, everyone wants more. Pretty much everyone wants more spending on the NHS. And care for the elderly. And parents want more funding for schools. And now they want more funding for nurseries. More funding for public transport. Fine in practice. But I don't see many people who'd be happy to have income tax go up by around 10 p to cover all this. Because seriously, that's the sort of increases that need to be made to get the standards we want.

It's so ironic, parents put their kids on such pedestals these days but do they want to pay more than a fiver an Hour for excellent care? Hell no, most begrudge it immensely - who do you know who works for a fiver an hour - not many people right?

Ah scrap my previous crappy maths, I think I've confused myself with 3 days vs 5 days.
Alright help me out... I pay almost £250 per week for the youngest 3 days a week... so that'd be £400 a week for 5 days? So 400*4.25=£1700 per month. If you have 3 kids, that's £5100 pm?

I think £2000 from that as wages would still leave a decent chunck for expenses?

@Snoopychildminder I know it's bloody expensive compared to most :( But it is 12 hours a day, which I need cos commuting takes ages.

I would like to add the fees were £48 a day. Private nursery. Around 20 odd staff. Most nvq3 minimum, first aid, SENCO, safeguarding, some had degrees but you wouldn't get paid anymore if you had a degree and there was no room to progress if no one left. You could only progress if you left and got promoted up or if someone left and you were internally promoted.
I agree with pp who say it's mostly young girls. Doesn't mean they aren't qualified in that field. Just as carers are qualified with an nvq in health and social care. Doesn't mean they have less value than someone who is academic surely?? They are still working hard and providing a much needed service? Imagine if all the childcare providers decided to go on strike???

I am absolutely shocked about how badly nursery and preschool workers are paid

So am I considering what I hear people saying childcare costs - PER CHILD. £800/900pm in some instances, and every child will be being charged at these rates. At 30 children per class, I'm guessing?? Where the fuck does the money go?? How does it cost that much to operate a nursery?? Someone is on to a right money spinner.

30x 800 is 24,000 PER MONTH. It does not cost that to run a nursery.

IMO there should be government run nurseries where the price per hour of the childcare is capped at a reasonable cost and they aren't run for profit.

Nursery shouldn't cost more than the wage earned to send them there. Something is seriously wrong with a system that does.

@Eliza9917 .. that's exactly what I'm trying to work out. Is it just profit, or are there some really high running costs we don't know about?

30x 800 is 24,000 PER MONTH. It does not cost that to run a nursery

Broad statement of fact. But probably incorrect if you actually stop, think and work it out.

A very high chunk of it must be profit. Someone above said there were three classes per age group/year at their nursery. So at 3x classes at 30 kids at £800pm, that would be £72,000pm. Per year group. How many year groups in a nursery? 4 or 5? Say 4, so £72k x 4 = £288,000pm.

PER MONTH.

WTF.

And they want you to pay extra on top for snacks & nappies.

And why do nursery staff have to be qualified in anything other than care & first aid etc? Its not school, its nursery. Playschool. Why must kids be subjected to testing & developmental markers from nigh on birth? Why not just let them play and socialise, until they start actual school?

Yanbu.
The head of our baby room is worth her weight in gold. She's been there 10 years and my daughter adores her. She just has a natural ability to charm small children. She's removed my mum guilt at putting her in nursery.

There are lots of overheads in running a nursery though-rent, insurance, training, heating, bills, maintenance.

Thank you for raising a topic that is close to my heart.
I’m currently on maternity leave from a job in an early years dept. of a school.
I love my job and wish that as a sector it commanded a higher salary unfortunately that isn’t the case.
What is more important though is the recognition and respect of the parents and general public, that we are professionals who have studied and trained (many of us at higher levels) and that we do our jobs for the love of them. I feel so proud when I see a child I have been working with achieving something that they previously struggled with.
A pp mentioned degrees, there are degrees in early years and childhood studies there is also an early years teacher status. These qualifications can’t guarantee you a higher salary because sadly money doesn’t grow on trees and simply isn’t there to pay out.

I run a childcare business - not a nursery, but same regulations. Maybe I can give some insight in to the hidden costs? Obviously these will vary but:

-Rent; in my area the number of buildings suitable for use as nurseries is pretty small so most are based in large converted townhouses. Properties that sell for £2-£3million.
-Rates; equally horrendous.

Staffing; on top of your straight ratio staff, most childcare providers will have others who are not included in the ratios as you need to be in ratio at all times. In most places the manager will be supernumerary, possibly add in a floater or two. You're also assuming that all of the staff are fully utilised (i.e. they always have 3 children, or 8 children) all of the time. IME this is rarely the case as there's a huge variation across the week in terms of numbers because lots of parents work part time. We try to recruit staff to only cover busy days but it's hard to find people so some days have a bit of a glut of staff.

-admin staff; you would not believe how much admin can be generated. Just the sheer volume of emails that need to be kept on top of, chasing payments, managing invoicing etc. People chop and change days, times etc which all needs responding to. Obviously admin staff are supernumerary

-toys and equipment. Good quality equipment is blooming expensive, but cheap stuff (designed for domestic use) tends to fall apart. We spend a fortune every single year replacing worn and damaged toys and equipment, plus upgrading and getting new things

-building maintenance. Again, really high. Even high quality commercial carpets get stained, worn, damaged etc. Walls get trashed, fixtures and fittings too. Might sound minor but it all really adds up very quickly.

-cleaning costs; most places pay cleaners (see above re mess and damage!)

-registration costs
-Staff training
-recruitment including PVG/disclosure checks
-agency staff
-sick pay
-pensions
-tax
-utilities (high, kids need warmth!)
-waste disposal (commercial and expensive, especially when you have nappies to dispose of)

It all adds up very very quickly.

Oops, I knew I missed something!

-food (just snacks for us but day nurseries tend to have some sort of chef/cook to prep everything, plus the food itself)

Eliza9917 whilst I don’t disagree with you in principle, I think under 5s should be allowed to just be children, we do need to have some way of gauging their understanding so that we can help stimulate them and aid their development. A lot of children attend school unable to grasp a pencil correctly. This is where good quality early years education is vital. Therefore we must be governed and regulated just as schools are.

@BumpityBumper And if you think I was being facetious in that income tax needs to go up by at least 10p in the pound to cover all these things we all want but no one being prepared to accept that? People tend to hold up the Scandinavian countries as being phenomenally good in terms of nursery care, schooling, social care, health - all the things we want to be better. Here's the reality of how that is paid for:

Swedes have a small personal allowance then pay taxes averaging 32% on incomes up to £39,000, rising to 52% on incomes up to £57,000, with a top rate of 57%. VAT is nearly the highest in the EU at 25%

I do think there should be investment in the quality of the care, but not particularly an increase on wages for NVQ qualifications level.

I agree, it's more of a second job type of thing. No one;s going to get rich looking after toddlers no matter how good the care. Care is going to be good or the place gets closed.

The money doesn't exist but it would exist if we paid higher taxes.

Ultimately people need to choose: higher taxes and better public services, or the reverse.

What do people want? Recent election results point towards the reverse.

I'm reading a book about Denmark at the moment and they pay high taxes but have heavily subsidised childcare (among other public services).

@StatisticallyChallenged Thank you for the break down.
You've definitely added a few more costs I hadn't thought of.

The government already does, that's what 30 free hours is, a subsidy essentially.

@Racecardriver
30 free hours is the complete opposite of subsiding these workers wages and is in fact probably a factor in keeping them down.

Here's an interesting article backing up Statistically and giving example figures (albeit from 2015)

www.theguardian.com/money/2015/mar/28/9000-childcare-parents-nursery-fees

thouse saying that children should just be chuldren and why do we have to make sure they reach milestones. you realise the goverment insists on this. we have to show offstead how we record and make sure they do.

and it does help them bebreadybfor school and alloesnys to pick up on any issues.

you don't run a nursery to make a profit is the reality.

That's interesting ShatnersWig, thanks. Once you factor in director's salaries and net profit they're running at a bit more of a profit margin than us but not hugely, and we've had a lot of set up costs in the last few years (start up business rather than one we took over so literally started from scratch) which has an impact.

I wouldn't want to even contemplate calculating our own hourly rates though, I think it would just make me weep!

@bumpitybumper

Would you support all teachers being paid minimum wage then and being topped up by parents? Do you not see a benefit to society of having reasonably well paid people in positions that could massively influence the next generation?

It’s nothing like the same thing.

Teachers should be paid more than they are.

IMO 0-4 care is better provided by parents. Should you wish to use childcare, fine, your choice, but you should be paying for that choice. 0-4 do not need to be ‘in school’ they need to be cared for by loving, caring people. This does not require a degree.