Barrister: you look too well. Be more dowdy. Men's clothes are not an issue, why women's?

[Flappypants]

Hi

I had to attend court today because my narc STBXH (the groping speeder) is asserting I am a danger to the children and mentally unstable and so need an assessment. Mixed results for me but that's not the reason for this post. I was attending court. I wore a black below the knee shift dress with red shoes and a red, gold and black silk scarf. Dress: second hand Primark in an eBay bundle. Shoes by Schuh £6, eBay. Scarf £3.99, Oxfam. Total less than £15. I felt I looked smart, appropriate and respectful.

My barrister said to me "I must say you look a bit too, erm, well". I asked what he meant, thinking he meant I didn't look mad or unstable but he clarified that if it were a financial hearing I should look more dowdy and needy.

I kind of get what he was trying to say but a man would not be pulled up on his attire. Why a woman? I said that I had been brought up to be respectful and to dress appropriately to the situations I find myself in. He backed off a little saying that I must dress in a way that makes me feel comfortable and confident. We made light of it and I take on board the feedback but this isn't an issue for men, surely?

AIBU to think the world needs to sort its sh*t out?

Well done for getting through it! It’s tough as fuck!
You don’t need to be dowdy, be sharp but forgettable! I wore a fitted grey Ted Baker dress from eBay with black mid height stilettos- I felt good in it, I did smile when I saw my barrister was wearing louboutins. She was brilliant, and cost me my own louboutin fund 😂

Its pretty simple advice really. You don't want to wear clothes that will distract people. Its not about being prudish or sexist or expecting different things from men and women. Court is expected to be a sober and serious environment. The lawyers will all be in dark suits. Anyone in more flamboyant dress will stand out and not in a good way. Its not the environment to be standing out.

You want the Judge concentrating on the rightness of your arguments not thinking 'good lord, what ARE those earrings' etc, etc.

If your lawyer was moved to comment on your outfit, then I would listen. If you don't want to take the advice of someone experienced in the court arena, then you don't have to. But as I assume you are paying money for this advice, you may think it prudent to listen.

In court you wear a formal outfit. Black shoes, trousers/skirt/dress, white shirt, black blazer or jacket.

Men wear a suit and tie.

It's a bizarre custom but court is very formal. Expressing personality isn't the done thing. Ridiculous but as long as our courts are the way they are, with the wigs and robes, that's how it is.

There are no wigs and robes in family courts. And that isn't the point anyway.

This isn't a nightclub, it isn't a fashion parade. Its just common sense to dress for your environment. A surgeon wouldn't operate in a silk gown. People going to court need to wear comfortable and sober clothes that cover most of them up. If what you wear is distracting from what you want to say, you are making unnecessary problems for yourself.

You made your outfit look expensive. Probably you have a great eye for clothes and shoes.

If you look like you can afford an outfit costing hundreds, which presumably was the barrister’s opinion, then this could influence a financial judgement, even subconsciously.

Same for men. Need to wear suit and tie to look smart. Otherwise could be judged disrespectful.

sadly I think you should forget your pretty scarf too

Ironically flappy family court is the least formal (no wigs and gowns) and you’ll even find (female) family barristers wearing natty little scarves and boots - but I did hear a family barrister being slated by her colleagues for having bare legs not dark tights. Not the arena for red shoes. 👠

I guess you pay your barrister for good defence and good advice. I’d go for it. Appearance matters, they’d tell a man to dress smart if it mattered too.

I didn’t’t know what to wear at court for my FDR. My solicitor said ‘poor but honest’ so I wore a Florence and Fred dress, minimal make up. Ex showed up in £1k suit. I got 90% house equity and substantial pension share so no quibbles re advice!

Just do what your brief told you to do. The world isn’t perfect. His job is to get you the best result he can for you, not to make the world perfect. He knows what to do. Listen to him.

Barrister is being dramatic. The judge will look through all the faff. It's what they're there for.

Some of them will saggital some of them won’t.

I wore tops with holes in the elbows to family court. Since they were my smartest ones (minus the holes, or should that be plus?!).

I did not have a solicitor or barrister to tell me I was too scratty though.

Didn't seem to harm my case.

True, Judges are trained to look through faff. But they are also humans. This is why I was told as a junior lawyer NOT to wear big dangly ear rings etc, etc because these kind of things are an unnecessary distraction from any arguments you are trying to make. Same applies to clients, when they are giving evidence etc.

Its all very simple I think. Consider the environment you are in and modify your dress and language accordingly if it is important that you do well in that environment. If you don't care about doing well or would rather make some crusading point about your right to wear a crop top and hot pants whenever you damn well like, go for it! I get paid either way.

Thanks everyone. Sage words from the wise MNers.

Losing sleep over it won't help.

I'm off the Bedfordshire.

A man certainly would get similar advice. For men, it makes no sense turning up to a hearing about finances in a mega-expensive Savile Row suit, handcrafted shoes and a top of the range Rolex watch: they would be advised to go for something like a cheap M&S suit.

And the barrister wasn't pulling you up on your attire, he was trying to help you get the best result.

I'd stick to darker colours for court, less dowdy, more sombre. It's simply more appropriate. I really judge mens clothing, too, and even a "dull" suit can give a lot away so YAB slightly U there so I get your frustration.

FWIW DP works at a law firm, is often in court and always tones down his clothing. He is a tailoring fiend who enjoys colour coordinating shirts, ties, cufflinks etc. He leaves the coloured shirts and bolder ties off for court and has previously mentioned that female barristers usually play it VERY sartorially safe. So your red shoes probably did rather surprise.

but a man would not be pulled up on his attire

Of course men are pulled up on their attire. It's ridiculous to think otherwise.

If they're planning on turning up in jeans or track pants, their counsel will tell them to wear a smart suit. Conversely, they may be told to dial it down if their usual style is pretty flamboyant.

My then 45 year old ex turned up to court wearing a muscle vest and chewing gum.

When we walked in I could see the judge staring at him quite openly at ex. I had instructed my solicitor to accept a very low offer financially as I was worn out by the whole process. The judge took one look at the offer and refused to rubber stamp it as he said it was unacceptable and couldn't in all good conscience allow it.

I can't say for sure that the way my ex was dressed affected the outcome that day but my solicitor said in his opinion it was likely that it had annoyed the judge.

sorry about the grammar.... time for bed I think!

There is not much point in the barrister telling the OP she wasn't dressed right on the day of the hearing. How was she supposed to know that her clothes weren't the 'smart, appropriate and respectful' look she was aiming for without any guidance? If black shoes are the done thing i court then it would have been much better to tell the OP that in advance of the hearing.

This is about how people present themselves. Nothing to do with you being a woman. I get the feeling you'd like it to be so you can be all angry and het up about the patriarchy but this isn't the right opportunity.

There is appropriate attire for both sexes and small but subtle changes make a difference.

@ontheroses said it best - Court is a place where the persona needs to fade alitle.

I’m in Court daily advocating for my clients and every word I say, action I take or outfit I wear is designed to have maximum effect.

If I have an office/Chambers day I will wear a bright red lipstick or be more adventurous with my clothing, but, as @ontheroses so eloquently said, in Court I let my persona fade a bit and let other aspects shine through.

Call it harsh, unfair or a comment on society - sure. But I have given the same advice to both colleagues and clients countless times over the years and you should not expect any less from the professional you are paying to advise and represent you.

As a trainee I had a friend who was dismissed by the Judge because her fringe was too long. Courtrooms are generally archaic and staid. Your solicitor or the barrister should probably have mentioned what would be appropriate attire. It does sound like you looked too great, i.e. your eye for a bargain made the outfit look expensive. I would say court is one place at least where a man's appearance will also be judged. There are lots of unspoken "rules" about what colour suit/shirt/tie/pinstripe or not etc particularly for younger male barristers. Similarly for a financial hearing I'd imagine a man would be advised not to show up in a suit worth hundreds of pounds even if from a charity shop or bought years ago in different circumstances. All that said, I'm sorry you're having a tough time and that this invariably won't have helped.