Bewildered - what is it?

[Prasky]

Dear Mumsnetters, I really feel I need the opinions of impartial outsiders in this matter and would be grateful for anything you can offer.

I will try to keep this as brief as possible but, apologies in advance as it will still be quite long. I really feel I need the opinion

Back Story:

Known these two women 7 years. They are the wives of two of my husbands good friends which is how I met them. I'm in my mid forties and they're in their mid fifties. Used to meet up once a week every Wednesday but gradually has dwindled down, due to various reasons. Now see each other maybe a couple of times a month.

There has always been a problem almost since the start of them blowing hot and cold. One minute friendly the next somehow not so. I try not to take it personally but it has been a recurring theme.

When I first mentioned it to my OH he was sure it was my imagination but then he started seeing if for himself. and agreed that, one in particular, seemed to have some sort of issue with me.

We have never had an argument or fallen out with any of them.

6 weeks ago

Hadn't seen them for a while. I went to find them in the beer garden while the men were at the bar buying the drinks. They were alone at a table. Usual greetings, smiles, how are you etc. etc. fine. But as soon as that's over one of the women, the one who is usually fairly ok, said "I'm just finishing my story", turned away from me to the other woman and , both completely ignoring my presence, carried on a conversation.

I truly understand that these women are good friends but I do thing this was rude. Surely the best thing to do is say " I was just telling X about..." and include the newcomer in?

Or if it's private, given them that discreet look, or just say "I'll tell you later" meaning when they talk alone again. Isn't that what most people would do?

In hindsight, I should have said 'I can see you're having a private conversation I'll leave you for a bit" and left them to it but I just didn't think. It took me completely by surprise and I think I was a bit stunned by the rudeness.

Last Wednesday

Met them in the pub. They seem to naturally segregate when they go out - all round the same table but with the men on one side and women on the other. I sat next to the 2 women and it seemed ok at first. Then one proceeded to talk to the other and again I found myself totally ignored while they just carried on the conversation. I noticed that when ever anyone said anything remotely funny they would laugh but if I would say an amusing comment their faces were just straight. I don't expect them to be rolling around at my sparkling wit or repartee but I just felt singled out in some way. I started to wonder if I was saying something offensive without realising it but I wasn't. They were just off the cuff remarks. As an example, my husband as started a new job and is having a tough time with some of the staff. When he was telling them this one of his mate's said 'I'm sure you'll win them around! and I said 'Course he will! He won me round, didn't you?' really alluding to the fact that we met at work. Just general things like that.

The conversation got going with the 2 women again and one of them said she had a bad night's sleep the night before so told her I had also woken up early and couldn't get back to sleep because I'd had a funny dream and it kept making me laugh. I had no intention of telling the dream as I know how boring other people's dreams usually are! But they asked me what it was. Literally about 70 seconds in the woman said "Oh god this is like a movie". There is nothing wrong at all with comment but it is HOW she said it and was obvious, from her tone, her voice, and her expression, that it was meant as a nasty stab. I could understand, maybe, if it was dragging on and on but it wasn't. Anyway, I let it pass and carried on. When I got to the funny bit that kept making me laugh, the same woman said "You're never right you aren't, I'm telling you". Again, this can be an amusing comment but it was how she said it, with barely concealed venom and spite and a half laugh and sneer. And no, the dream was nothing sick or perverted or unsavoury in any way. It was children's comic book type of funny.

In hindsight, I should have just realised they didn't want me and talked to the men. I do not have any of these issue with the men. But I keep thinking they will 'get over' whatever it is and I am never prepared for it so it catches me unaware and I seem to almost freeze in shock. They way they act is as if I am doing something really unacceptable, like wearing my cleavage to my knees and flirting with their men but nothing could be further from the truth. I never did this when I was young and single, I certainly don't do it now.

I also noticed there was a marked difference in how this women was talking and responding with me than to my husband. It was almost like a switch going on and off. To make it clear NO she definitely doesn't fancy him or anything like that. She sees him as a nice man, a good friend etc. The difference is in her conversation, expression, voice, tone and body language. Unmistakeable.

I asked her if she ever missed work and this is lead her recounting some of the really awful things clients have said to her before . She was understandably a bit worked up and upset repeating them it was more like anger directed as me, how she was saying it, as if there was something wrong with the question. She had a job commonly known to be very difficult but had never said anything about these incidents before.

To sum it up it felt like there was a lot of repressed anger and resentment that had built to such a level it was just seeping out and it was only aimed at me.

I have also just realised that they are both fine when the other one isn't there. To me this suggests they talk about me behind my back.

I don't know if this is relevant but it just came to me so I will mention it: I was bullied in high school by a particular girl. Years later she apologised and said she felt really bad. I asked her why she did it and she said 'because you were also so POLITE all the time!'

This did take me back a bit!!lol!!

I have also overheard someone saying I might look like butter wouldn't melt but 'there's more than meets the eye'.

I am wondering if I am appearing too good to be true and people are somehow thinking I'm putting on an act or I'm really up to no good?

I am just being myself. I am no saint not by a long way. But I don't deliberately go out of my way to put people down, or bitch behind people's backs or go along with the crowd for the sake of. I'm not argumentative, a bully or a show-off and, as far as I know, I don't have an annoying laugh!

When things similar have happened in the past I have just blamed myself and shrunk my self smaller and smaller or tried to bend myself out of shape to please and appease other people but I am not doing that. I cannot thing it is anything I am doing or saying that seems to be the problem but it might be just 'me', perhaps I've got an annoying voice or something etc. No one has ever said this btw.

If there is an issue I would prefer they said something. I don't see any excuse whatsoever for treating me like this.

Question 1

Is it me? I'm always willing to stand back and look at my own behaviour as I'm aware it's easy to offend people sometimes without realising.
Question 2

These incidents are obviously not going to stop. How should I carry on going forward. I've thought of several possibilities:

A) Just stop seeing them - this appealed at first but then I think this makes it seem like I am running away and I would rather deal with it. Also, why should my OH not socialise with his mates?
B) Ask nicely and politely, "Have I upset you?" or something to that effect. I just feel this is pointless as they would deny it and probably say they were joking.
C) Sit with the men - I should have done that last night, if feel
D) If the do it next time, say "I can see you want to chat to eachother, I'll leave you to it" - and then sit with the men
E) Be on my guard in conversation with them ready to respond straight away. For example, when she said " oh god this is like a movie" say straight away 'oh I won't bore you with it then'. And when she said 'you're never right...' stop her and say 'what do you mean by that *Julie?' and make it very clear I know she's being passive-aggressive.

Or other? I don't want to inflame the situation but it needs addressing, somehow.

Just to be clear, my OH didn't see any of this as he was sitting on my opposite side mostly talking to his friends.

If you have reached this point, thank you for listening.

I couldn't be doing with this and I wouldn't bother going again. Maybe you could arrange to meet with the 'nicer' one on your own?

I would just avoid them. Why would this affect your DH? Surely he can still see his friends without you?

They sound thoroughly unpleasant and I wouldn't waste another second of your time worrying about them or having anything to do with them.

I would just keep away from these two women if you feel that they mainly ignore you and your views.its not worth getting upset about. If they make you feel like you cannot fit in with them, well, better off without them.

OP I know exactly where you're coming from. I could write a book about the stuff I have seen over the years regarding bitchy women!

She is singling you out for her passive aggressive sh*tty behaviour and has probably done it so many times now she's chipping away at your self esteem and you are second guessing, walking on eggshells around this stupid woman.

You're too nice a person to have to deal with this type of crap.
Believe me true or even genuine social friends do not behave like this with one another.

Don't waste any more of your vital emotional energy on these crappy individuals. Make new friends who are genuine and actually care about you!

I really cant understand why you are giving these two women any headspace. They obviously don't like you, you are useful if they are there by themselves but otherwise they prefer to gang up on you . Sit with the men (by that I mean with DH, otherwise you are trying to flirt with their husbands). I had a situation with a women you was passive aggressive with me. I asked her if she had a problem with me , to which she said no. I then said well I have a problem with you and how you behave towards me. I didn't want to be her mate but I couldn't let her behaviour continue in front of others. It maybe they see you as a threat or their OH has commented on how nice you are !!

Or you could ask her what her problem is?

Well you're ten years younger, that's enough of a crime for some women.

Are they jealous of you around their husbands?

Oh and I forgot to add that in no way should you give her the satisfaction of asking her if she had a problem with you.

You do not need to put yourself on the back foot by giving her an opportunity to open her stupid mouth in any way, as if he has some god given right to start criticising you for being you!

They are your husband's friends' wives, you are ten years younger than them, have you got much in common with them?

Find some better friends who you can share life experiences and expectations with, and who will show you some kindness and generosity of spirit.

As another poster asked, what does “you are never right” even mean? Do you/she mean “you are never wrong” (sarcastically)? In the context of listening to a dream it’s an odd thing to say regardless.

The three examples you’ve given, two about you and one asking about her missing work. If these are typical, maybe they think you talk about yourself too much and at length, or you were being goady hinting she should be working. I’m not sayinvthis is the case, but if they don’t like you they will look for reasons and interpret your behaviour to be bad!

I’d just ask them straight out if they have a problem. Do it in front of the DH’s also.

You find them bitchy, they find you boring.

Stop trying to be friends, it isn't going to work. Chat with the men or stop going.

It sounds like you see them quite a lot. Life is too short to spend with people like that!
If you can be bothered you could either ask if they have a problem directly or as your husband to talk to his friends about the way their wives behave and if they know there's an issue.

In my experience when people are underhand bitchy they don't like to be called out on it. They will either pretend they don't know what you're talking about, hold a grudge for bringing it up or cut off contact. If it was a very close family member or friend whose behaviour had changed I would definitely advocate speaking to them. However in this situation with the two of them in it together I think they will be fully aware of what they're doing.

They don't like you for whatever reason. It doesn't mean you have done anything wrong or should change anything, it just means your personalities don't mesh well.

Have you got other friends you can go an see while your husband sees his friends?

Make new friends and invite them out with you too, then you can ignore the women while your husband hangs out with his friends.

Maybe one of their husbands has admitted he fancies you and they don't want you around for that reason. I think I'd be inclined to pull them up on it next time and call it out.Tell them you are getting the distinct impression they don't like you and could they explain why. What's to lose ? They sound pretty unpleasant. You have to stand up to bullies,

I reckon their husbands might fancy you and the wives have noticed. And they don't like you because of it.
As far as they are concerned, you are not only in a three's-a-crowd situation when you are with the two of them, you are also perceived as a threat.

They sound like a couple of bitches to be honest. I wouldn't waste my time with them. Tell your DH that he's welcome to go and join the blokes but you'll spend the time with people who want to be with you.

There's nothing wrong with you - those women have crushed your self-esteem to the extent that you're questioning everything about how to handle them.

I know you said you want to face it, and work through it and not let it defeat you. I'm guessing that you would feel like they'd won in some way. But in this case, walking away from them would be the winning stance, they'd no longer have you around to bully - and you would be happier as a result.

As another poster asked, what does “you are never right” even mean? Do you/she mean “you are never wrong” (sarcastically)? In the context of listening to a dream it’s an odd thing to say regardless

I took this to mean "There's something a bit wrong with you".

I'd try and sit with and talk to the men.

You don't say in your post, but do make an active effort to sit with/talk to these women? They sound very cliquey. It sounds to me like the dynamic needs to change... focus on the men and then you remove the power they have to exclude you. I'm wondering if your efforts are for some reason giving them more confidence to treat you poorly - I'm not suggesting your desperate for their friendship but maybe they interpret it that way? If so, changing the group dynamic by chatting with the men will demonstrate that actually you're not worried either way and may even make them question why you're not so interested in them. Of course remain polite and friendly, but drop back in the effort. I think sometimes people fall into these behaviours without even thinking about it (a bit like mob mentality but on a much less dramatic scale!) so you need to shake it up. I wouldn't confront the issue, they will be defensive and probably segregate you further and give them something to whinge about. Plus I wouldn't give them the satisfaction of letting them know they've bothered you.

I think its as simple as their husbands have agreed that you are really nice and they both know that they themselves are not a bit nice. So they're giving you the cold shoulder - unless as a PP said you're useful if there's only one of them there. I'd leave them to it and let your DH go on his own in future; if eventually his mates ask why you never come out with them any more, have him primed to say "well to be honest she felt she wasn't really welcome" and let them make what they will of that.

Oh and by the way, they both sound like right bitches - you're better off without them.

Are you a second wife? Are they friendly with yr DHs ex?
They sound horrible. Def chat with the men. Maybe prepare some topics of conversation beforehand that will get everyone chatting, eg stuff in the news, etc.
Keep your own conversation brief.
Arrange to bump into other friends at the pub and sit with them instead.

They are probably jealous of you OP.
When I first started work, in a bank, I was, unbeknown to me, the most highly- educated amongst my co-workers, but too naive to realise that my conversation, confident friendliness and well-spoken-ness might make them feel inferior in some way (grammar schools, eh?)
Some of the girls never got over this, but one day, my manager took me to one side and said she knew that their attitude was getting me down, but to try to rise above it, because they were being horrible because they couldn’t compete against me.
I always try to be nice and polite but I still come across people like those bank colleagues: I still try to rise above it while wondering what on Earth is going on in their lives that they are jealous of mine, but I’m more aware that some people just don’t like it if they think someone is better than them ( and before I get flamed, for the record, I don’t think I’m better - or worse - than anyone else)
So my advice is to sit with your DH and only (apart from formal greetings) join in their conversation if they address you directly, while remaining open and friendly so they get no bad vibes from you

Don’t meet up with them again. I wouldn’t want to go somewhere and feel like shit. Let your husband go without you. Don’t put yourself through that again. They clearly don’t want to be friends with you. It might be strange for your husband to go there without you whilst everyone has their partners. But I’d just get your husband to tell them that they treat you like shit and you won’t come again