Toxic family situation

[Sweetcarrielynne]

Looking for some advice on what a reasonable solution is to this toxic problem.

My granny died about 15 years ago, and for much of the time since then my granddad has lived with a woman we'll call Vera. They got together a year or so after granny died and had, for many years, a very happy relationship.

Things have in the last couple of years turned terribly, terribly sour. Vera is a few years younger than my grandfather and helps him a bit as he's become increasingly frail. For this reason he feels dependent on her. But he is terrified of her and I don't know when things changed exactly. He is now convinced she is only with him to try and get her hands on money (he is wealthy), he believes she has stolen from him but there is no evidence of this, he has told us that she has said terrible things to him (about disinheriting my dad and his brother, about me and my siblings / cousins being a drain on him) but we haven't heard her say these things ourselves. He is frightened and miserable but he can't face doing anything about it.

He seems compis mentis - no other indications of dementia or mental frailty at all. His depression (intermittent throughout his life) has returned full force, but he doesn't ever seem confused or uncertain. But it's so hard to square this up with the Vera we know, who has always been a nice lady and who behaves as normal on the rare occasions that we now see her.

Vera has two very difficult adult sons - one is a gambling addict who has had much of his inheritance in advance and lost it. He spent several months living with granddad and Vera and granddad several times found him rifling through papers in his private study etc. The other abandoned his wife and Vera now supports her DIL and grandchildren financially as her son has little to do with them. I don't know if they have anything to do with the present situation but they could be putting pressure on Vera and causing her to behave differently? I don't know.

This is coming to a head because Vera lives with my granddad but owns her own home which she is now planning to sell to free up money. My granddad is concerned that this money will go to her gambling addict son and she will be left penniless and with no assets. He wants to draw up a cohabitation agreement to ensure Vera gets nothing if he dies, to protect my dad's and uncle's inheritance.

But I'm terrified that his concerns about Vera - who still seems to be behaving normally to us - are paranoia and he's going to end up trying to force an unfair agreement on her and leave her in a terrible position. I don't know why they don't just break up when there is clearly no love and trust - but I think he feels dependent on her. I fear he's using her, but I also fear he's seeing a side of her that is hidden from us and that we will fail to support him.

I don't know how to proceed from here. We keep having fraught and emotional conversations with him that go nowhere. He seems paralysed by anxiety, and I just feel helpless in the face of it.

Is there any way you or a family member could help him out by letting him move in with you? So that he doesn't feel worried about being left alone. Such a tricky situation but it sounds like he's scared and needs support emotionally and physically.

He's spending a lot of time with us which I think is helping but I don't know that it's a long term solution

Some advice here:

www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-3729637/Financial-abuse-afflicts-130k-65s-warning-signs.html

Thank you knittedfairies, that's really helpful.

My dad and uncle are going to be given access to his bank accounts (granddad doesn't understand how to work online banking) so they can start keeping an eye on whether his money is going missing. That will hopefully be a start

Has he married Vera?
Does he have a will?

He isn't married to Vera and he does have a will. As far as I understand the legal position (we are in Scotland) to be, if he were to die she couldn't make any claim to the house or his assets, as the will would take precedence. Obviously she will be entitled to her share of any commonly owned property etc, and no one in my family would have a problem with that.

Hidden cameras? I don't know if they exist outside of tv and film!

Sounds like a worrying situation - can't he advise her not to sell her house as she'll need something if anything happens to him as the inheritance will go to the family not her?
Also sounds like her family are taking the piss if that's what's happening wouldn't like her best my Grandad to be frank if she's got questionable behaviours

If she's not going to inherit anything from him he needs to make that clear now. You say he's afraid to break up with her, what's he afraid of? That he'll lose his cook/cleaner/caregiver?

You need to (or your dad/uncle) get power of attorney. This can be financial or medical or both. Not sure how it works in Scotland. I think Bera should be made aware that your dad/uncle will be keeping an eye on finances and will control online banking. She also needs to be made aware that he has a will leaving everything to your dad/uncle so she needs to have a back up plan eg keeping her own house. If your grandad goes into care, his house will probably be needed to fund the care home and will need to be sold.

If she hasn't/isn't doing anything wrong, I think she is being treated very harshly

Power of attorney, essential to keep him safe

This is very unusual. Are you saying he's been in a relationship with this woman for 15 years and intends to leave her nothing, she gets nothing more than is hers and she's legally entitled to?

As much as I'm sure she's not in it for thr money, it's been fifteen years and she's caring for him, it's unusual for someone to not wish their long term partner to inherit, as you probably know.

Is he under some pressure from family to leave it all to them? Protect the offsprings inheritance so to speak?

Does he act terrified of her when she's around? It doesn't seem so.

How has he been in previous relationships? Do your parents know? Has he a history of treating women well or badly?

Get power of attorney ASAP

That he'll lose his cook/cleaner/caregiver?

I don't think it's that - he knows that alternative arrangements could easily be made. He doesn't require a huge amount of help, just with certain tasks. He already had a housekeeper and gardener and knows that between family and paid help we would make sure he was looks after. I think it's the emotional fall out he's terrified of - how to make her move out if she won't, how to deal with her son (the one who gambles) who he is frightened of. I think he's scared to find out what would actually happen if he tried to end it.

If she's not going to inherit anything from him he needs to make that clear now

Luckily this has always been clear - she is also a widow and inherited substantially from her former husband. When she and my granddad got together they agreed that they wouldn't expect to inherit from each other as they both wanted their assets to go to their respective adult children. She sold her marital home and bought a property which her son lives in - its this property she now intends to sell and my granddad thinks this shows that she's now expecting to inherit, as he's concerned she is leaving herself in danger of not having a home. She has given literally hundreds of thousands to her son over the years and we aren't confident that the proceeds of her property sale won't go the same way. That combined with his belief that she's stealing money from him has made him think that she's relying on his finances rather than her own, and that she's not only relying on them but abusing them.

flumpybear that's a good idea - might at least force them to have a conversation above what she sees herself doing in the event that he does die

How has he been in previous relationships? Do your parents know? Has he a history of treating women well or badly?

His only previous relationship was with my granny, and they were very happily married until her death. He was also happy with Vera for many years (which is what makes this so difficult now). He isn't at all abusive or cruel. He also isn't tight with money - he pays all bills in the house, pays for one of Vera's grandchildren's university fees, bought Vera a car and gave his old car to one of her grandchildren, she had full access to his bank accounts etc and doesn't have to ask for money. She just spends what is needed (which does mean if she did want to steal money it would be easy, hence my dad and uncle now keeping track).

Is he under some pressure from family to leave it all to them? Protect the offsprings inheritance so to speak?

My dad and uncle would never pressure him and see it as his money - they often encourage him to spend it while he's alive on what he wants. But this is something my granddad wants to do. He and Vera were both independently wealthy when they got together and both expressed a wish to keep their wealth for their children to inherit. I doubt he would leave her nothing in his will (I haven't seen it) but he's very keen for the house and the bulk of his money to go to his sons.

I think part of the issue is their financial position has changed - Vera is much less wealthy now as she has bankrolled her sons so significantly, so her financial independence is much reduced.

If she hasn't/isn't doing anything wrong, I think she is being treated very harshly

I agree - I want to do the right thing but if my granddad's fears are founded then he needs protected. We need more evidence / facts really.

He isn't exactly fearful around her but is very subdued. I almost never see them together any more - she avoids being in the house when we visit and doesn't come with him when he stays with us now though she is always invited.

Power of attorney is a very good idea.

Yeah power of attorney and also legal advice on what could happen in future events.

POA must also be given to bank as proof that uncle/dad are appointees and they need to be made aware of any issues with bank access for large sums of money or transfers.

I'm Scotland too and the bank can advise on uncle/dad having online access to monitor and shut down card access as needed.

Just a quick thought- if Vera has access is she giving her son's access?

That's a major red flag and if so it could be a fraud matter as your grandpa hasn't authorised them.

Just a quick thought- if Vera has access is she giving her son's access?

She has in the past, as in she's given her son granddads bank card so he can go and do a grocery shop for them. It used to happen a lot when he lived with them. My granddad eventually told us that this was happening and he wasn't happy about it but had felt like he was making a fuss when he should be grateful for the favour. My dad made him change his PIN then and told Vera himself it wasn't to happen again (which she agreed to at the time but said it had just been the occasional favour - which it might have been, we don't know that there was foul play). I don't know if they have had access since then, but Vera certainly has.

Thanks so much for the info about the bank, that's very helpful

If she had access to his bank accounts and she has been told to help herself then I'm not sure how she can be stealing. Do you mean she is taking money from you DGFs account to put into her own? Or give to her son or something?

As for the behaviour in the house a nanny cam or similar might be an idea. I'm not sure about the legality of it though, but you could talk to your DGF about it.

You mentioned that you don't see Vera all that often, is there a reason for this? Could it be that she is changing as your DGF becomes more frail?

If Vera has access to his account she could be deemed to be financially dependent on him and pursue a claim against the estate after his death. The thought crosses my mind that the same applies for the grandchild of Vera’s who is having their uni fees paid.

Would your grandfather consider moving into sheltered housing? The type that has both independent living and a nursing home would be ideal as you can move from one to the other as needed. That would make him much less reliant on her even if she moves with him. Also with that type of housing the deal is usually that you either rent or the management company buy it back on the death of the owner or when they move to the nursing home, so that would prevent her from basically refusing to leave.

It does seem that she is trying to make herself a dependent of your grandfather’s, by making herself homeless and giving away her money, which might or might not give her some claim on his estate when he dies.

I think it would be very interesting to see the bank accounts. Does your granddad see paper statements and check everything off?

I am very suspicious of the fact that she seems to be avoiding the family - I wonder whether it's guilt at what she's doing.

Never, ever underestimate how embroiled parents can become in their child's gambling and drug habits. I wonder whether she's used his money to get her son out of trouble.

When your grandad said what was happening, what did he say when he was asked for proof? How did he know (or suspect) something was going on?

he has told us that she has said terrible things to him (about disinheriting my dad and his brother, about me and my siblings / cousins being a drain on him) but we haven't heard her say these things ourselves

This is very worrying and of course you wouldn't have heard her say those things!

Definitely get PoA in place. It is worrying that Vera's son used your granddad's bank card & knew the PIN, that would have concerned me. Does your granddad want to stay in his own home or would he consider moving somewhere on his own, like a warden assisted place just for him? I'm thinking if he would move he could use that as an excuse to end the relationship due to his needs changing ivo of his age. It might be an easy way out & Vera would know that she needs to move back into her own home. I also might consider using hidden cameras to check if things really are bad, but it is worrying that your granddad seems cowed in her presence and I wonder why she avoids his family now, that seems suspicious. TBH for me there would be several red flags here & I don't think you should discount your granddad's fears.

It does seem that she is trying to make herself a dependent of your grandfather’s, by making herself homeless and giving away her money, which might or might not give her some claim on his estate when he dies.*

This is what we are most worried about. If she becomes dependent on him (because she has been bled dry by her sons) then we obviously can't just cast her off with nothing (and we obviously never would). She will need some provision for her. I've told my dad he needs to meet with a solicitor to get to grips with the legal position here.

Would your grandfather consider moving into sheltered housing

I don't think he would agree to this - he loves his house and is perfectly able to live there with some help. But I think it's a good idea to start overcoming his reliance on her, perhaps by having paid help come and take over what she has been doing (e.g. driving, some shopping, some cooking).

If she had access to his bank accounts and she has been told to help herself then I'm not sure how she can be stealing

My granddad thinks she (or her son) has stolen money in the thousands, so more than just helping herself for groceries etc. She does have her own money - she is the beneficiary of her husband's pension which was very generous and she inherited substantial assets from him (although we don't know how much remains as a result of what she has given to her sons). She is supposed to use grabddads card for household stuff, and he wouldn't care if she was also buying herself things like clothes etc. But he has said he thinks tens of thousands have gone. His affairs are terribly disorganised - multiple bank accounts, literally a box with several thousand pounds in cash hidden in a cupboard, various shares and bonds etc. He doesn't keep track of it well so it's terribly difficult to know if anything has actually gone, or if he just didn't know how much was there in the first place.

You mentioned that you don't see Vera all that often, is there a reason for this?

She has been avoiding us - for over a year she's been making sure she's out when we visit and although granddad often stays with my parents and she's invited she never comes with him. I don't know if it's because she knows he is unhappy and anxious and is trying to avoid discussing it. We've seen her when specific meetings have been arranged e.g. to resolve the issue with her son using the bank card.

Sorry if any of this is drip feeding by the way, it's so complicated it's hard to put across in one go