to wonder why kids need to be able to read BEFORE starting school

[M3lon]

Just reading this.

I don't get it. Surely if you are in charge of the education system it makes more sense to address the issue of why children that start behind never catch up than to try and work out how to make sure all children start with exactly the same abilities and experiences on day one - which is NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN, because children develop at different rates, are actually different ages when school starts and have starts in life that you can't make even across the board without some major re-plumbing of society as a whole.

AIBU to think the minister for education should focus on fixing the bit he is actually in control of, and make schools somewhere where getting behind doesn't mean you can never catch up?

wild

I think I agree with almost all you say.

BUT - don't you think some extra investment in actual teachers in year 5/6 could have helped children who fell behind to catch up too?

If class sizes were smaller wouldn't it be less likely for children to be left behind in the first place?

Is it definitely better to invest in nursery, when not all kids will go there, than primary schools?

IMO you cannot fix the underlying problem, that children are ready and able to learn different things at different times. If you don't have a school system that is well funded and flexible enough to account for this then it will always be letting children down, no matter what you do at nursery level...

But OP perhaps by years 5 and 6 it is impossible for the children to catch up? I'm not a neuroscientist but my understanding is that the very early years are when neural pathways are laid down and perhaps trying to cram all that development in later when the brain is far less malleable is just physically not possible?

wasp that is really not at all true. Brains do become less plastic over time, but it certainly doesn't happen significantly at that age.

Reading is a perfect example of what I mean.

A child can be really smart and engaged but not 'get' the phonics approach to reading. If a child doesn't learn to read quite rapidly in school then they are by default getting behind on even more stuff that would require reading to engage with.

But all of those problems are created by the fact you are trying to teach 30 different people with different problems, different abilities at the same time.

If the children were being taught in smaller groups, it would be possible to tailor the teaching to match the children better. When you've cracked reading, you've cracked it. It shouldn't matter when.

Again, when people have stated that reading is holding kids back in other subjects, this wouldn't happen if the teaching was done in a different way.

All these issues could be resolved...but we just sit around saying its not possible, because we aren't prepared to actually invest in education.

Haven't rtft but in all honestly it's all way to much pressure for young children. Thing is they only care about statistics. Children are no longer allowed to be children. When a child does have sn they won't give the additional help needed. So basicly what can parents really do I know laugh love and enjoy your children for being children.

The pressure on young children to read early worries me. Formal schooling at the age of 4 is very young- and, probably not necessary. Having friends from Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Italy - their kids learn to read from 6 onwards. No need to learn phonics before school. Different cultures, but I prefer the lack of pressure on very young ones on the continent.

However, it is important that children are spoken and read too, and very sad if this does not happen. This is not the same as knowing your sounds or reading cat or car.

But why don’t see me children have books?! Maybe I’m being very naive ..
I appreciate of course books are expensive but the library ?
My children are fortunate and we have a lot of books here but I pop to charity shops and can get pretty much any books for 25p.
It must be so sad as a teacher to see children who are not exposed to books at home.

Bloody text ...
Why don’t they have / see books

Agree with 3littlebadgers. Children are expected to be able to accomplish read I g far too early when they should be improving listening skills. That way the words in reading will be mire familiar and easier understood as attention will be more concentrated.

You can get cheap books. We have loads of books and go to the library I must admit I love sitting down with my boys to read.

Agree with badgers completely. It is difficult to catch up, especially in year 5/6.

I have pupils without SEN who have reading ages of 6. I teach high school. It’s a complex area, because a lot of the pupils simply don’t come from homes where reading is valued, and so they have never valued it. Obviously not the only issue, but by far the most obvious I see.

I do somewhat agree kids develop at their own pace, My son is 4, just starting Reception. He can read books aimed at 6/7 year olds, and answer the comprehension questions at the back. He can do more complex numeracy question (for a four year old) But he cannot hold a pen in the tripod method, despite me doing loads of fine motor skill practise, buying grips etc. He still holds his pen in a fist, as such he struggled with handwriting.

Library books are free, but getting a library isn't. I live in a reasonably pricy area within walking distance of a library. My friend who lives in a cheaper area has to pay £6.50 in bus fare to get to her nearest library.

And when plenty of people can't even afford to eat regular meals, keep their homes warm or have shoes that keep their feet dry, books can be an unaffordable luxury. Add to that the fact that many parents have low literacy levels themselves and others grew up without books and don't think of them as something to have around, and it's not really surprising that children grow up without books.

Children do all achieve different skills at different ages, but I see so many parents not talking to their children, just looking at their smart phones. it’s no wonder kids are starting school with no social skills or able to talk properly. I’m so glad smartphone weren’t around when my child was young. I myself was a summer baby, a twin and born premature so spent my entire school years always trying to catch up. It didn’t help that schools in the 70s were a bit experimental too.

It's not always an "affording" thing. Most museums are free. SIL has never taken her kids to a museum even though she has many excellent ones very close by and she has funds for bus fares or parking. She has no interest in museums, history or taking her kids. it simply would not occur to her to do so. She doesn't read books, never took her kids to the library. She did read with them when they were younger, but kids who grow up in a house where they never see their parents reading and don't see any reading materal around the house are gonig to struggle to develop a love of books.

DD started school when she was 4 years and two weeks old. Yes, she was behind and pretty much remained behind. I really do think that the youngest ones will always struggle or at least until their teens. She was the lower end of getting by when I pulled her out of school in September, due to bullying. I believe she has improved since then.

DS started school on his fifth birthday, so near enough a year older than DD when she started school. He has coasted along, refusing point blank to do homework at home and is the upper end of doing ok. He could read a few works before starting school, or should I say recognise them.

I do think the government need to sort out the issues in schools, address why so many people are choosing to home educate nowadays and stop the constant testing, which mean schools end up 'teaching to pass tests' rather than 'teaching to facilitate learning'.

They need to focus on the above, rather than 'dealing with the problems' of people home educating their children by over legislating.

The pressure on young children to read early worries me
But if parents are reading to them and then with them at home where's the pressure?! You get your children interested in books by reading to them and showing them the pictures. Then you start getting them to try the words out with you so it's fun for them. Before you know it they're reading. That's basic parenting. Perhaps if people spent less time on social media they'd have enough time to spend with their children....

They don’t need to be taught to read before they start school. They do need to be read to as much as possible. It’s that simple really.

I found that article frustrating because my DS2 has no SEN but his speech & language is poor and behind his peers/expected standards.

Nothing to do with lack of books or language at home.

Nikephorus - I like your comment. It's great but what you suggest is far from straight forward or true. My DS is 7 (August born if it matters) , he loves stories, he loves being read to or making up his own from pictures. What he can't seem to grasp is the very abstract concept of letters + sounds = reading. The pressure he / we are experiencing from school is huge! Extra support lessons and other intervention strategies... he feels singled out. At school, he has developed "challenging" behaviour and has been in trouble several times.
Now, we DH and I are well educated people. I am an avid reader and speak 3 languages fluently, so our son is considered to have the right background.
I think the wrong is not with our child but with the education system itself. The bar is set far to high and leaves out children that need a bit longer. And the icing on the cake is that every teacher wants to assess him for something like ADAD... Disclaimer: there are no behaviour issues at home!

I was an August baby. I was a very early reader and was top of the class for reading and writing from the day I started school despite being the youngest there. That continued all through school. Nobody knows where my love of reading came from as neither of my parents read books, my mum only reads books when she's on holiday.

My DS isn't a fan of reading and writing despite me still being a bookworm, there are over 300 books in my house and I read every day. We always have a bedtime story. He just isn't that interested, he prefers to be doing practical activities like lego. He couldn't read before he started school and he's just finished reception year at the average reading level for his age.

All children are different. DS is better at maths and problem solving from what I've seen so far. If he doesn't fall in love with reading like me I'm not worried.

My son started his reception year unable to read, apart from recognising his own name. He’s just finished reception and he is a fantastic reader and one of the top in his class for phonics. He’s not behind at all!

Sinuhe

Sounds like Dyslexia

I found that article frustrating because my DS2 has no SEN but his speech & language is poor and behind his peers/expected standards.
Has he had a SALT assessment?

OP I think the point was that some kids don't catch up (note, it didn't say be able to read) because they came to school unable to speak in basic sentences, unfamiliar with books or language, unable to sit still for a few minutes, not able to feed themselves, still in nappies. Some of this will be SEN or simply late development and should be properly supported.

Some of this will be because some parents see it as the school's job - and this last has been going on for a few generations I've observed, which means the parents had the same thing visited on them. And yes, it's not just parents on benefits, it's some MC and very rich parents as well. The sort of every class who defend their children's failings and blame the profession for them while doing nothing themselves.

However, it remains true that something needs to be done - and opening the debate is one way to do it. I'll certainly be volunteering for some of the pathways outlined in PPs. Especially since in rural areas some of the previous schemes weren't available to people who couldn't afford a busfare and libraries were always miles away.

Thank-you fightthebear, I am glad to know we are not alone on that one. Our DS1 was speaking fluently and picking g up numbers, letters etc well before he turned three. DS2 is almost three and his speech is difficult to understand, he struggles with counting and doesn’t seem to know any letters. Both have been spoken to lots and are read to at least twice a day. Although nobody seems to think DS2 has any sort of SEN yet (he’s very smart in other ways), I Lee being told that issues like his are increasingly common as parents speak to their children less and din’t Read. I find it really frustrating, as we do all of those things and more, but they just aren’t skills that DS2 is acquiring easily.

this assumption and government expeditions on preschool/reception kids is the reason i home ed

my 8 y old(end of july baby just had a birthday this week) "should"be going in to y4 in sept,because of multiple sen needs(development delay by 2-3 years is one) hes still on reception level and cant read or write at all(found out in y2 he was left to play for 3 years) and even though ive tried and tried and he just cant get it

the unrealistic expectations and one size fits all(ie if you dont tick our boxes your left behind)approach to education is why thousands and thousands now turn to home educate or dont even send their kids to school

if knew home ed exsisted back then my 13 and 8 y old would never have been sent