To think we should actually 'just piss off back to the 1970s'?

[TheMythicalChicken]

So this is in response to a TRA on Twitter who said that all those women objecting to proposed changes to the GRA should 'just piss off back to the 1970s'. And it got me thinking - maybe that's what we need to do, at least in terms of women fighting to be heard and for certain rights to be protected.

In the 1970s we had women's groups, we had our own feminist newspaper, 'Spare Rib', women were powerful and strong and we gained so much for women of the future. Most women of that generation gave up feminism, because we didn't feel we needed it anymore. But when I look at what's happening now, in terms of men in women's spaces, erasure of lesbians, etc. it makes me think that we need to organize and fight in the same way we did back then.

What does everyone else think?

I see your point but at the moment half of this nation is running towards a cliff edge intent on mass economic suicide and the other half doesn't know what to do. I agree that womens representation is eroding but I see that as part and parcel of the right wing agenda being pressed on the West. I dont think splitting into factions would be terribly helpful right now. Unity is strength etc.

I wasn't around for the 70s and I would love to experience 70s-style feminism first hand. Until recently, my media sources were very much the lib-fem type of feminism (and the LGBT media which by and large ignored lesbians and has got worse and worse) but the transactivism issue has led me to different types of feminism and to different ideas (which make a lot more sense - there was always a level of cognitive dissonance with some of the stuff the lib-fem sites came out with). We are in a very worrying position right now (and as a lesbian I have seen my community torn apart by this) but I think it is leading more women (like me) to see the level of misogyny in society and to be introduced to radical feminism which is one small grain of comfort in all this.

Ah the seventies, when it wasn't legally possible to rape your wife (that's her job after all) and intelligent women like my mother were given the option of secretarial college or childcare because they'd 'give it all up when they had babies anyway' and 'university is really only for the well off'. Yes let's go back 🙄

The 70s had a great sense of optimism, that we were going to be able to effect change and that life would be better in the future (provided we avoided nuclear war of course). I find it very hard to conjure up that optimism now. Is it just me getting old, or is it more difficult now to see a better future?

I was at university in the second half of the 70s. It was HARD work for women then, in all respects. The women who at present fall into the 'Libfem' category are just the same women who in those days used to say stupid things like "I don't believe in women's lib".

Today, however, we happen to be on a cliff edge of seeing men erasing our right to define ourselves as women, gather and discuss women's issues, rely on afe spaces, etc. so it's a bit more scary.

You're talking about a tiny number of women back then. Certainly not reflective of my Mums (and her sisters, friends and colleagues) lives in the 70s.

But those things changed because of the feminists and women's groups of that generation who fought for our rights. We should model ourselves on those women and learn from them.

That was in response to @Fash84

I was around (and campaigning) in the 1970s.

I was never accused then of being a disruptive MRA. I do not think that the internet age has always been an improvement.

""Most women of that generation gave up feminism, because we didn't feel we needed it anymore.""

Where these White middle class, well educated Women?

Coming from a mixed heritage WC area, I didn't see any evidence of Feminism, that was worthwhile, as a whole, in the 70's.

The Feminism about was classist, racist and disabilitist.

The same, now older, MC Women don't see the insistence of Women being over a certain age, or income level, before they have the right to decide to give Birth, as a Feminist issue.

Perhaps an "everyday inclusive Feminism" is the route to go down, for a change.

"'I do not think that the internet age has always been an improvement."'

I've seen evidence of it changing Women's lives.

The relationship board on here, even does that.

Perhaps you have to experience what life is like in some areas, or families, to appreciate that, though.

I wouldnt want to go back, I was sacked for being pregnant in the seventies.

Things were moving forward in terms of the fight for women's rights in the 70s. Now we just seem to be moving backwards.

Most women in the 70s weren't massively affected at the time by what feminists were pushing for but in the end many ordinary women did benefit in many ways.

Now it seems like we're all being pushed back into a world where women and their rights and opinions are mattering less and less.

MereDintofPandiculation tbh, I think its you getting older.

I grew up were I live now and there is a massive difference in the attitudes of Women about what they will and won't put up with.

The Men have also changed (many people have never moved away).

Feminism is still working on a ground level.

I was still a young child in the 70’s. - but just wanted to thank you op for all your hard work - you paved the way for future generations & we will always be so grateful.

"Most women in the 70s weren't massively affected at the time by what feminists were pushing for but in the end many ordinary women did benefit in many ways."

There are interesting debates around that. We did join the EEC in the 70's and started to get influenced by a more liberal Europe, as such.

It suited those in power to get Women economically active. As was done when slavery ended.

I was talking about the internet age in general

Not the utility of some threads/topics on MN

And I find the rapidity of making an accusation (and I paraphrase) that I'm out of touch, don't value the right things and have insufficient life experience, to be wholly irksome. Some could easily be rebuffed simply by stating facts, but I'm not gong to get into a pissing match about whether someone is acceptable to a smallish circle of posters on one internet site. I get that you don't agree with me, and that's fine. The insinuations beyond that, ie that I must somehow be lacking to disagree with you, is what is a turn off. And with decades of experience, it is something I very much see as a cophenomenon which arose as the internet grew.

I don't much post about feminism, not because I feel I have any way given up. But because of the endless nit-picking and unfortunate assumptions that are all too common.

OP wasn't talking about rolling women's rights back to how they were in the 70's.
She was talking about women getting their act together, like women did in the 70's.

I think it needs to be inclusive of all women but only women. I think as women we are socialised to prioritise other groups (ie men) over ourselves and to put our issues last (or to see women's rights as less important than the rights of other oppressed groups) so I'm trying to be more aware of that and the impact that has on my thinking.

I can see how in my life I've experienced disadvantage as a woman and as a lesbian but I always (at least subconciously) thought that LGB rights (as it was then) were the more important area to be involved in. The gay men in the movement treated us women like absolute crap and we just accepted being treated like that and campaigned and fought for them and their rights (e.g. on stuff like AIDS, the age of consent) while they did nothing to promote our rights and absolutely vile misogyny was rife.

I've come to realise a) that the abuse I experienced for being a lesbian was rooted in sexism (because I wasn't conforming to what was expected of me and wasn't making myself sexually available to men) b) that sexism is just as important as any other of the 'isms' but tends to get minimised c) about how endemic sexism is in supposedly progressive movements (but men don't seem to have the same pressure put on them to be inclusive).

In terms of the last point, I think we need to be inclusive of women from all these groups and how these issues intersect. However, if, for example, a feminist group decides to be inclusive of 'LGBT issues' and supports 'LGBT causes' what they are most likely supporting is male dominated organisations that put the interests of the men in that group first. So I think we need to include the women rather than make feminism about doing everything and fighting all causes for all people - because women's rights get lost in there.

That was in response to the "everyday inclusive Feminism" comment earlier. I obviously respond too slowly!

Except that in the 1970s marital rape was still legal. And it was still legal to pay women less than men for equivalent work. And black women were being consciously discriminated against in the prescription of contraceptive medicines. And for the first half of the decade there was no Women's Aid meaning literally thousands of women were forced to stay in abusive marriages, often with their kids. And the sex discrimination act and employment act (which protects maternity pay) didn't pass til 1975. The Domestic Violence and Matrimonial Proceedings Act didn't pass til 1976.

So actually if you want to return to that time, I think you're either extremely naive (or possibly stupid) or your prejudice against trans people is such that you truly believe self ID is more of a threat to your wellbeing as a woman than marital rape, or wage discrimination, or domestic violence, or racism. And if that's the case, there's no hope for you.

@Birdsgottafly Yes, I quite agree that attitudes of women have changed and they no longer tolerate things that in the 70s we felt we had little choice but to tolerate on a day to day level (if a work colleague kept stroking your hair or trying to grope you, you dealt with it yourself because you'd have been laughed out of the room if you'd tried to take it up with management); and that a lot of men have started to realise that women are individuals .... but I was talking about the future. You feel that feminism is still working at the ground level .. but are you optimistic that things will continue to change for the better for women?

I'm afraid I don't. I see the way childrens' activities and toys seem to being differentiated by gender more than they were 20 years ago, with girls being encouraged to be pink and "girl" and generally ineffectual, and a much greater emphasis on appearance and physical attractiveness.

Ah the seventies, when it wasn't legally possible to rape your wife (that's her job after all) and intelligent women like my mother were given the option of secretarial college or childcare because they'd 'give it all up when they had babies anyway' and 'university is really only for the well off'. Yes let's go back.

That's not really accurate, at least as far as university is concerned. Whilst it's true that fewer people overall went, because you didn't need a degree for most jobs, full grants were available, in sad contrast to today. So surely the idea about university being only for the rich is more true right now than in the 70s.

Oh please OP - as a young woman in the 1970s there is no way I'd go back to them. Now we have #MeToo so there are plenty of women fighting for a better future.

Not sure where you live OP but this statement just is not true! 'Most women of that generation gave up feminism, because we didn't feel we needed it anymore.' Feminism has never been given up (I'm now 70)

@TheShapeOfEwe

I'll just repeat @UpstartCrow 's message earlier up the thread:

OP wasn't talking about rolling women's rights back to how they were in the 70's. She was talking about women getting their act together, like women did in the 70's."

The things that changed for the better, including refuges, better legal rights etc happened because feminists of that generation fought for them.