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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it’s very sad certain professions are denied to some children

376 replies

continuallychargingmyphone · 27/07/2018 08:43

I just didn’t know when I joined MN that if your name is not suitably middle class you are forced into a life of servitude in Asda or Tesco. No being a high court judge for you.

Or, aibu to think people are ridiculous and call your baby what you like?

OP posts:
BroomstickOfLove · 29/07/2018 10:35

Traditional Irish names are constantly dismissed as chavvy here, particularly the boy's names.

Conor, Kian, Kai, Kevin, Sean, Liam, Ryan, Kyle, Shane etc

I think Conor is a particularly good example of this. Mumsnet thinks "naughty boy from a deprived and chaotic background" while I think "Conor Cruise O'Brien and Conor Gearty".

glintandglide · 29/07/2018 10:39

I’m a bit confused. You don’t have a theory, you just have a racist selection process that you yourself implement in your workplace. And you actually tell people about it

GreenTulips · 29/07/2018 10:40

I didn't have those down as Irish! Just thought they are popular - I suppose they are both! We aren't in Ireland but there is a heavy Irish population but none of those I mentioned have Irish parents.

Shows names can flow between the nations, and shouldn't presume

LadysFingers · 29/07/2018 10:53

Jassy

So, if you are not working in a large organisation with a HR dept. to do the recruiting; its a small organisation where everybody is under time pressure to do the chargeable hours, achieve billing targets and recovery rates, with clients ringing up asking complex, technical questions all the time, how would you select 2 people out of 400 - all of whom are graduates and apparently qualified to do the job? You certainly do not have time to interview all 400 of them.

IMO, this thread is pointless, because what is the competition to get in to do medicine - 6:1? There are probably people out there, who got AABB and would make better doctors, than those who do get in, because their empathy and people skills are better - but they don't get in, because medical schools choose to use academic criteria and pick all grade A students! It does not matter how you look at it, the number of people required to work in the professions outnumbers those who would like to.

Really, OP should be complaining about how children's life chances are blighted well before adulthood, by parental income (per the latest report) and campaign for more resources for the education system to make good the chaotic family life and deficits in language, reading, etc and whatever those children suffer from! Iirc 1 in 5 children suffer from SEN at some time during their education; probably 5% of all children have inborn learning difficulties, etc and the rest, the SEN arise from deprived backgrounds; over 90% of male prisoners have difficulties with reading. Campaign for better resources in the SEN system!

glintandglide · 29/07/2018 10:57

Why would a company so small attract 400 applicants? If they genuinely do they why don’t you do the obvious and make the application/ assessment criteria more rigorous so only the best quality get through?

You’re coming across like you don’t have a clue how to recruit, it’s really strange

Camomila · 29/07/2018 11:04

There's so many layers to the British class/name thing....a pp mentioned Catholic names and I immediately thought
Francis
Gabriel
Therese'
Cecilia
Edmund
(Home counties Catholic school)

The hot topic of year 10 was what we'd pick for our confirmation names :D I went with Maria.

We gave DS a name that matched his background, so he has a 'works anywhere in Europe' saints name. He is mixed race, and neither of us are English so I very much wanted to give him a name where he'll fit in/'belong' with his peers.

JassyRadlett · 29/07/2018 11:20

So, if you are not working in a large organisation with a HR dept. to do the recruiting; its a small organisation where everybody is under time pressure to do the chargeable hours, achieve billing targets and recovery rates, with clients ringing up asking complex, technical questions all the time, how would you select 2 people out of 400 - all of whom are graduates and apparently qualified to do the job? You certainly do not have time to interview all 400 of them.

You start by writing a proper person specification so you’re not relying only on CVs. You ensure that person specification enables to you evaluate experience or aptitude for all the things that are important to you, so that you can score appropriately and interview the top cut. You can get a huge amount from a two-page personal statement.

My HR department do not get involved in anything but the logistics of most recruitment. The actual selection process is (rightly) down to hiring managers. Our processes do ensure anonymised applications, which is a good thing.

You invest time and effort in selecting the best possible candidates. As another poster pointed out, one reason for productivity underperformance is lack of investment in the workforce. However that isn’t limited to lack of training, it works right back to job design and recruitment.

You don’t use ‘too brown, too poor, probably the wrong accent’ as your recruitment filters. Apart from being appallingly bigoted, you are unlikely to be getting the true best talent - especially because, as another poster pointed out, if those people really do come from less advantaged backgrounds, they are likely to have shown greater tenacity and resourcefulness to gain the same qualifications as Crispin and Tabitha.

JassyRadlett · 29/07/2018 11:21

There’s a business to run, why on earth would I choose a third best candidate?

No idea, but you seem to be embracing it with vigour.

JassyRadlett · 29/07/2018 11:25

There are probably people out there, who got AABB and would make better doctors, than those who do get in, because their empathy and people skills are better - but they don't get in, because medical schools choose to use academic criteria and pick all grade A students!

I missed this gem. Are you really equating academic performance with (perceived) skin colour and class as valid selection criteria? Really?

TooSassy · 29/07/2018 12:22

Plenty of small (and yet highly interesting) startups can receive 400 applicants for a role. Especially if you are in the hot industry of the moment.
Interestingly enough the sector I am alluding to (high tech), even at the start up stage, can have processes in place including the anonymisation of CV’s. Scanning of job specs for inherit biases. Introduce processes that try and ensure the interview process is as unbiased as possible (so clear gradable core requirements that can be tested against as far as possible).
I’m not saying any company has it perfect, and that biases don’t exist. But in certain sectors a lot of efforts are being made.

Theycouldhavechoseneve · 29/07/2018 12:44

I was referring to your theory Glint, that I’m potentially missing out on the best candidates by filtering using name. Trust me, I’m not missing out at all, and there is nothing racist about what I am doing, that’s just your presumption. Possibly where you live some of the names mentioned are non white/non English names. Where I live (north) it’s not the case. There is though a particular ethnic group over represented in one very skilled role in my organisation because they are consistently the highest calibre and can name their price.

JassyRadlett · 29/07/2018 12:49

Trust me, I’m not missing out at all

How could you possibly know?

GreenTulips · 29/07/2018 12:55

but they don't get in, because medical schools choose to use academic criteria and pick all grade A students!

I actually think the cost of a Doctor degree is 'higher' to poorer students because they will be more price sensitive (and what if they don't like it or change their minds - it's a lot of money to pay back

The government should be encouraging more students into being doctors by giveing a susbsidy - same with any profession with a low take up rate or shortages.

Rebecca36 · 29/07/2018 13:03

News to me.

However if my parents had given me a name I didn't like (Waynetta springs to mind :-) ), I'd change it before I did my GCSEs. You can call yourself anything, it's quite legal.

Theycouldhavechoseneve · 29/07/2018 13:07

Because my teams are performing Jassy. I inherited Jayd-ee. We had to let her go when she thought being tired was a good reason to excuse repeated lateness. Then there was coming to work in pin curls. Amongst other issues. Lack of parental guidance. My dad was a semi skilled manual worker and my mum took jobs in shops, cleaning etc around school hours. They gave us solid, historic names. They took us to the library and were invested in our education. They had expectations of us. They had the money for the basics, nothing more. The social mobility of others is not my crusade, what I’m saying is my organisation can’t survive with the Jayd-ee’s of this world. Your criticism of that doesn’t move me in the least

glintandglide · 29/07/2018 13:08

Well, obviously Rebecca, if you were waynetta you may not have the life experience and skill to understand people like theycouldvechosen will be rejecting you for racist, classist or xenophobic reasons. Most 15 year olds are quite Trusting like that, they don’t always realise the world is full of cunts.

glintandglide · 29/07/2018 13:11

But your organisation is just some provincial accountancy firm staffed with racists theycouldvechosen. Quit acting like you’re google.

Theycouldhavechoseneve · 29/07/2018 13:21

Glint we employ 1500 people. There is nothing racist about my approach or organisation. But hey if making up a narrative for me helps you prove your point to yourself, fill your boots.

JassyRadlett · 29/07/2018 14:31

Because my teams are performing Jassy.

Oh dear. No. That’s what all the unproductive places say. ‘We’re doing fiiiiine!’ Not enough interest in being better.

I’ve had shit employees from all backgrounds. I’m just not shortsighted or thick enough to shut myself off to future brilliant recruits from those backgrounds because of previous bad experiences (otherwise future Tarquins and Arabellas would be equally screwed with me.)

But then, I have a recruitment process that is pretty reliable in testing these things, because I’ve put a lot of work into it, and in improving my own skills in good recruitment.

Theycouldhavechoseneve · 29/07/2018 14:42

Trust me Jassy, with hedge fund owners we have to be the best. How about you just speak for yourself.

BroomstickOfLove · 29/07/2018 14:48

I'd actually quite like to know the details of Theycouldhavechoseneve's business to make sure that I never use it.

Possibly, when choosing a solicitor, accountant etc in future I should have a look at the name of the people working there and ask questions if they are all on the middle-class approved list.

BroomstickOfLove · 29/07/2018 14:53

Though to be fair, I suspect that if you are a bright and talented working-class student you are more likely to choose to apply to a big international firm with anonymous recruitment who sponsor your education than a smaller firm with a reputation for snobbery.

JassyRadlett · 29/07/2018 18:52

Trust me Jassy, with hedge fund owners we have to be the best. How about you just speak for yourself.

Because I’m not the one excluding talent through discriminatory hiring practices, love.

Theycouldhavechoseneve · 29/07/2018 19:46

I might be excluding talent Jassy, but we’re not short of talent. Like I said, social mobility is not my crusade. But you fight on.

SugarIsAmazing · 29/07/2018 19:55

@Broomstick
I love Irish names. I have a Liam and a Shannon...they were good kids with good grades.
This post is disheartening.