To get my hair off with this paygap denier

[Jackfruitburger]

"I think men are more driven (in general) to get high paying jobs, whereas women tend to either do what they like doing (I.e making cakes and selling them, or run breeding and boarding kennels) or do something of service (teacher). I really do think it's innate."

Also her

"But I also don't see it as a problem that needs to be fixed - it's just the way we are and the way it is. Men and women are different."

I don't even have the words to argue back.

So don’t.

YABU. IMO, she's correct. (If you don't like it become an engineer or a plumber?)

I don't feel that those roles were suggested to me at secondary school.

But you were aware plumbers existed?

Men and women are different, by nature and nurture.

Careers education is less gender specific now.

Why do you want an argument? She's entitled to her opinion. What are you looking to achieve?

YABU, She’s rIght “in general” which is what she’s said.

Of course there are women out there that can do what is perceived as a mans job better than a man, and there are men that could do what is perceived a woman’s job better than a woman.

The Pay Gap deniers that are a problem are those that don’t accept that there are many businesses that pay women less for the same work as a man and blame things like “well they should just push for a rise then” because in a modern society these things should be fair and transparent and not based on whether someone complains loudest.

But what they have said is entirely reasonable and probably true. Women typically are far more altruistic than men with both their money and their time, it’s the conclusion of multiple peer reviewed studies. So it’s inevitable they are drawn towards certain types of roles. In general.

I almost agree with you on the second comment, and there are issues with that statement, we certainly want to change things so that the same options are available for our children, Male and female, but I anybody who is pushing for airlines to employ 50% female pilots and 50% male pilots or 50% male nursery staff and 50% female nursery staff is just being wilfully ignorant.

You can’t find the words, because there isn’t really much of a argument to have based on what was said.

YANBU OP. Attitudes like that are so unhelpful in trying to address issues like the lack of women in STEM or men in caring professions.

I find the argument that gender equality in different work fields is good for a country's economic performance is useful for people who don't see the issue with it.

Perspective - not being goady, but can you give me an example of those economic benefits? Genuinely interested

And it's the 'innate' statement that's a problem for me. Whether stereotypical gender behaviours (eg caring vs ambition) are driven by societal expectations, genetics or some complex combination of the two is still very much up for discussion as far as I'm aware (former biological anthropologist here). Claiming they're innate is unhelpful and pretty ignorant IMO.

Try to have her arrested for hate speech.

I was aware that plumbers existed, however my school and college pushed most students towards academia. I had straight A's and enjoyed English so was sent off to uni to do that, with little consideration of what came afterwards. The trade courses such as electrics, plumbing, mechanics etc were all aimed at men in my school and they even offered a fast track for disruptive boys to start those courses before their G.S.C.E's had finished. I would never have qualified to go on to this programme as I wasn't allowed to miss two days a week of school to attend the college course.
Most of my female friends followed a similar path, useless arts degree and then minimum wage jobs for life. I'm sure we could have all achieved more but how?

No problem User - here's something I was reading recently about Australia: https://www.wgea.gov.au/sites/default/files/wgea-business-case-for-gender-equality.pdf

I have read other stuff too but just juggling kids and work so will try to have a look for other stuff later!

I find the idea of being “encouraged” into work I’m not particularly interested in or suited to for “economic benefits” to the country a bit unpleasant really.

It's such a weird coincidence that all the jobs/roles that are innate for women are less well paid (on average) and less prestigious than those that are innate for men. Also it's weird how some jobs/roles are innate for women in some societies but not in others. Wonder how that works.

That’s Bollocks. It’s not nature, it’s nurture. We are socialized from a very young age to be the carers. Most of our female role models are either in caring roles or were fully or partly financially supported during our formative years. We do what we see. Children need more varied female role models. I work in a high paying traditionally male profession. My Mum was the main wage earner when my Dad became ill. They unwillingly swapped roles. It was difficult - but it gave me as a child a totally different view of what I could do.

And yes, the wage gap is real.

@FeckTheMagicDragon completely agree. I didn't know one 'career woman' growing up.

I'm not sure I want to nurture out doing jobs people enjoy or that are of service.
I want women to be paid the same as men for the same work and for caring/service jobs to be more recognized for the skill and hard work they involve.

• recognized in money

Thanks. You also make a good point about innate, whether it’s socialisation or nature that drives it, but it’s almost impossible to answer.

@jackfruitburger you grow up pre Thatcher then I guess?

@RideOn exactly, why should women who work in care homes bust their hump for minimum wage whilst building site workers who seem to have the time of their lives (according to my brickie friend) earn much much more?

Real life role models are what matter. We all know there are billionaires out there, we couldn't all become one tomorrow!

Yanbu. Evolutionary biology is basically being invoked to explain why its ok for men to treat their children like strangers.

When I was a little girl I wanted to be a scientist and Richard Feynman was my role model and the fact he was a man and I would be a woman did absolutely nothing to discourage that and the only reason I didn’t pursue it was that I realised most chemists (what I wanted to do) just do boring work for pharmaceutical, food and cosmetics type companies and don’t make astounding theoretical breakthroughs and I thought it all sounded a bit meh in the cold light of day (and didn’t seem that well paid either for the work involved).