To get my hair off with this paygap denier

[Jackfruitburger]

"I think men are more driven (in general) to get high paying jobs, whereas women tend to either do what they like doing (I.e making cakes and selling them, or run breeding and boarding kennels) or do something of service (teacher). I really do think it's innate."

Also her

"But I also don't see it as a problem that needs to be fixed - it's just the way we are and the way it is. Men and women are different."

I don't even have the words to argue back.

I really can’t bear this assumption that all women are, at their core, nurturing and fluffy and less career-driven and don’t want to get their hands dirty. What about female architects/astronauts/industrial designers etc? I’m female and honestly it’s never been in my nature to feel nurturing or fluffy. I’m selfish and career driven and I don’t want kids, and neither did I ever feel that I had to pursue a ‘girly’ career because that’s what society said.

However there clearly is still an issue with stereotyping as a lot of these responses have proved. I don’t believe men and women are different in the respect of ‘women are soft and men are ruthless’ - PEOPLE are different. Some men are soft and nuturing. Parental leave should be evenly split so both parents have equal amount of time off at different times (e.g) 6 months each while the other works. If one parent chooses to stay out of the workplace for longer then yes of course that’ll affect their career trajectory but it shouldn’t be assumed by default that it has to be the woman doing this. We need to work towards making parenting more equal

No-one is saying that about all women though. Humans clearly have a low level of sexual dimorphism compared to some animals so there’s an awful lot of overlap but it doesn’t mean there’s not general differences overall.

The issue for women is doing this and raising a family - the expectation that women remain the mainstay of the family.

I think this is an issue that women need to work on, not men. Feminism cannot succeed when not even 10% of women identify with it.

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/only-7-per-cent-of-britons-consider-themselves-feminists/

The moment women stop describing their ideal partner as driven or ambitious or being tall or older or confident (all dominant traits) is the moment the so called 2018, Western patriarchy starts to crumble. When the female GP, instead of marrying a surgeon, going part -time post children and retire by 50, marries a part time male nurse or even better , a SAHD and works full time till she's 60. Women are more educated than men, they make more money than men till they hit 40, they are the majority of voters and make 80% of all consumer purchases... if they wanted to remove patriarchy it would be gone by noon tomorrow.

The vast majority of women supporting the current state of affairs aren't the self-hating, brainwashed flying monkeys feminists have labeled them. The so called Western 2018 patriachy sill exists because women have decided it's a pretty damn good deal and going further down the line might not be such a good idea.

@Agripinah less than 10% of women say they would label themselves feminists, but 74% want equality between the sexes. It's an issue with the denigration of the term "feminism" not with the aims.

From what I read on Mumsnet, she has a point. Just this week I was reading a post from someone who thought she was too "fragile" to cope with working full-time and just wanted to have a hobby-job and be supported by her husband. Women on here encourage each other to give up work, work very very part-time and start up hobby-businesses like decorating cakes. I doubt that men would encourage each other to do this.
If we as women want there to be no pay gap, we have to accept that this means women must work hard in the workplace throughout their working lives and not give up a good job to bake cakes when the going gets tough. Most men work non-stop from school/uni to retirement, whereas a lot of women don't.

No-one is saying that about all women though. Humans clearly have a low level of sexual dimorphism compared to some animals so there’s an awful lot of overlap but it doesn’t mean there’s not general differences overall.

Correct. Jordan Peterson often talks about this and how men and women are much more alike than they are different. Take agreeableness for example, it's something like 60/40 in women's favor. But if you take the least agreeable 1% of people it will almost be men. That's why inmates are about 95% ... almost exactly the same % for male CEO's of huge corporations. Throw in the extreme variability in male cognitive ability and everything starts to make sense.

A great woman once said:

"There is no female Mozart because there is no female Jack the Ripper."

When did it become so politically incorrect to claim anything we are or do is nature instead of nurture?

Since biological determinism was debunked by Lewontin et al in the early 1980s.

From what I read on Mumsnet, she has a point. Just this week I was reading a post from someone who thought she was too "fragile" to cope with working full-time and just wanted to have a hobby-job and be supported by her husband. Women on here encourage each other to give up work, work very very part-time and start up hobby-businesses like decorating cakes. I doubt that men would encourage each other to do this.

So true. This is particularly true of middle-class women, who tend to take off quite a long time with their children. They begin to really enjoy themselves when the children become school-aged,, and with each year the gap between their prospective earnings and their husband's actual earnings grows bigger until she just starts a cake business or similar so as to keep busy and earn some money without upsetting the family ecosystem.

This is obviously a distinct subset of women, but you see a hell of a lot of it in London.

@Agripinahless than 10% of women say they would label themselves feminists, but 74% want equality between the sexes. It's an issue with the denigration of the term "feminism" not with the aims.

For me it's more an issue with feminism and sexual equality not always being aligned and absolutist, contradictory statements that absolutely make me cringe.

Some examples:

• The denigration, by the most vocal feminists I see, not necessarily all, of full-time motherhood as some sort of lower form of life is unwittingly misogynistic
• the expectation of being able to dictate what other women "should" do with their own lives is nothing more than a drop-in replacement for patriarchal control, sorry but it is
• the vitriol towards men is not something I identify with, many of my closest loved ones are lovely males and certainly not "the enemy"
• the obsession with identity politics has walked us straight into women being redefined by men, and the justification of rape culture re lesbian community
• a tendency to label all who disagree on any point as less conscious or woke and not having our own minds because we need to be "educated" or internalized misogyny etc - as if we as women, specifically, only women, do not have minds of our own. At least men are supposed to be oppressing us because they want to.

I'm broadly on board with the aims, but I really don't want to be identified with some of the means. I don't think I'm alone in that.

less than 10% of women say they would label themselves feminists, but 74% want equality between the sexes. It's an issue with the denigration of the term "feminism" not with the aims.

Feminism is about women's liberation from the oppressive patriarchy, not equality. As you know, you can't talk about equality as long as you're not even seen as a full human being. Their definition, not mine. Well, it seems that over 90% of women feel they are already free and in no need of liberation.

What's interesting is that 86% of men want equality of sexes compared to 74% of women! Now that's fascinating. Kinda reminds of how far more women wanting a male boss while fewer men care who they work for.

The vast majority of women don't want to live in Saudi Arabia, they want the same rights and opportunities as men and how can anyone disagree? The problem is they still want their partner to be driven, successful, confident, older, taller, chivalrous and all the other dominant traits associated with masculinity. The same way they want a male boss or vote for male politicians. The ''problem'' in on both micro and macro scales.

Most women are very keen on keeping the current gender roles to a great extent. If feminists want to smash patriarchy they need to have a long, hard chat with women, not men. And therein, as the bard would tell us, lies the rub.'

Since biological determinism was debunked by Lewontin et al in the early 1980s

Nobody even mentioned biological determinism, I even specified men and women are more alike they are different. Nature AND nurture. Only someone who is ideologically possessed would declare either to be 100% or anything close. The averages and the extremes make all the difference.

If I told you that a person was 6' which sex would you put your money on? That's another adaptation right there, women decided thousands of generations ago (as they still do in 2018) that ''I looove me a tall fella!''.

Seriously though, who in their right mind would want the gender role that turns you into a wage slave for 50hrs+ a week and drives you into an early grave when you can just stay at home with your biggest concern being not losing ''the game''?

I remember an article in the US media talking about how only 1/3 of all Ivy league female graduates work full time, the rest was evenly split between housewife and part-time. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on education in the finest universities in the world. It's mind boggling, it really is.

Seriously though, who in their right mind would want the gender role that turns you into a wage slave for 50hrs+ a week and drives you into an early grave when you can just stay at home with your biggest concern being not losing ''the game''?

You sound very angry so I doubt there’s much sense to be had from you, but I have to point out what an extremely simplistic analysis this is. The gender role that involves “just” staying at home is also the gender role that makes you entirely dependent on another human being - and another human being who, statistically, is not massively unlikely to abuse you. You just need to take one look at the relationships board here to see what a trap this “privilege” is for many women.

Also, you must live in a bubble if you think that most women stay at home. Most are working AND doing the majority of the domestic/childcare work.

If you’re really so concerned about the unfairness of gender roles, perhaps considering policies that might move us towards a fairer society where no one is expected to be a wage slave and no one is expected to be a domestic slave might be more productive than going on MN to rage about how easy women have it.

The vast majority of women don't want to live in Saudi Arabia, they want the same rights and opportunities as men and how can anyone disagree? The problem is they still want their partner to be driven, successful, confident, older, taller, chivalrous and all the other dominant traits associated with masculinity. The same way they want a male boss or vote for male politicians. The ''problem'' in on both micro and macro scales.
Thank you ^

The problem is they still want their partner to be driven, successful, confident, older, taller, chivalrous and all the other dominant traits associated with masculinity

What incel tangent is this? Blaming the persistence of stifling gender roles on (what you perceive to be) women’s sexual preferences?

Honestly, just say “I’m bitter because women won’t have sex with me” and be done with it.

Most are working AND doing the majority of the domestic/childcare work.

But is that not their fault? Both DH and I work full time, but my full time is significantly more full time than his. He does almost all the housework, and a lot more childcare than me. Incidentally my career is progressing perfectly well. If women are going to work full time and do all these other hings then more fool them. I see so many women complain about the pay gap but then insist they can only work part time as they need to be at home by 3 to pick the kids up. Why can't the father pick the kids up?

And a friend recently was complaining about lack of part-time roles asking what decent mother would want to leave her kids 5 days/week? Well what father would want to leave their kids 5 days/week - but they often don't get that choice do they? And if women want that choice then accept the fact there will always be a gender pay gap.

youknowwherethecityis you correctly identify fathers not having the choice to work part-time as a problem. Yet your solution, instead of giving them that choice, is that women must resign themselves to the pay gap? What?

Why can't the father pick the kids up?

Well yes, quite. Not sure why you are blaming women for fathers shirking their responsibilities.

You sound very angry

I see this line trotted out quite a bit on these forums during these type of debates, it's a bit of cheap shot if you ask me. You might not agree with what Agripinah is saying but he/she has presented their viewpoint without resorting to ad hominems.

In what way do fathers not have the choice to work part time? They have as much choice as mothers do. Every time my husband whines about hating his job I suggest he could be a SAHD and I go be the main breadwinner. The prospect of spending all day with young children quickly puts him off whining about work. Personally though I prefer the freedom of being at home even if it does mean spending a lot of time with young children (the sprogs aren’t that bad really!)

What incel tangent is this? Blaming the persistence of stifling gender roles on (what you perceive to be) women’s sexual preferences?
That is not what they meant. What he/she is saying is that you cannot have it both ways. As a woman, preferring male bosses because you think it's easier to work with to female ones, and yet you expect more female bosses to come up the ranks. Not voting for other females and yet you want them to move up the ladder.
Praising, wanting men to behave, act misogynistic and yet they would never move to somewhere, where the act is rife.
If you asked if the females supporting these beliefs where feminist they would throw a dagger at you. At the same time they will claim we are all equal and they will be grateful for living in country like the UK and not somewhere like Saudi Arabia.
They know feminist got us here but they refuse to see that and still remain ignorant wilfully.

And the older, tall bit comes with a patriarchy trait. It's not an accident.

But fathers DO have the option to work part time It's just that they don't.

Tbh among people I know, generally the women are more fussed about having children than men. The men are happy to have children, but don't want to give up their careers to do so. They would rather not have children. The women are more willing to give up their careers than their chance of having children. Everyone has choices!

SlothSlothSloth

That's not what I mean at all! I'm talking about the people who don't want their partners to do their fair share. Who want to leave work at 3 every day and not have their partner work part time or take any responsibility then complain about the pay gap.

As I said when partners do their fair share it's a lot easier to avoid the pay gap. So in an ideal situation men should be encouraged and be expected to do a fair share of the child related things (like time off for appointments, school pick ups, days off when I'll etc). If they don't I do believe it's as much their partners fault for allowing them not to!

yes I agree with agripinah I know several conventionally successful women, and I can think of precisely 1 of them that dated someone less successful than herself. I do think things are changing over time, though as it turns out that the woman is the higher earner going into having children.

You seem to not be allowed to say in these debates/the research that some women have a strong preference to spend more time with their children over and above the cost to them.

I have a side hobby in reading about the domestic setups of successful women - very few of them can do it without a lot of help, and even so, they've effectively made 'male choices' to give up time with their children. That's fine but that's not a woman having it all, that's putting your career first, nothing wrong or new about that choice.