To think crying isn't always attention seeking/manipulative?

[Echobelly]

... obviously, not including definite situations of grief or pain, but say crying because of frustration, having difficulty coping or taking something in?

I was a kid who cried a lot when frustrated, for example having difficulty doing a task, at perceived (real or otherwise) bullying etc. One of the worst things about it was, every now and then, I'd have an adult hissing at me that I was being a spoiled brat and crying wasn't going to get consolation, attention, 'my way' etc. But I never wanted attention or to be consoled - I was mortified by my crying and wanted the ground to open up and swallow me and everyone to leave me alone because I felt so embarrassed (I would get away from people if I could and I did not want anyone coming after me), but I also found it almost impossible to stop myself from crying. It was only a few times that I encountered adults who used the 'brat' line, but it made such an impression that my crying got even worse because every time I did it, I then thought 'And now every thinks I'm a nasty little brat because I'm crying' and found it even harder to stop.

I've talked about this with my husband as DD (10) is a bit of a crier (though not as bad as me) and sometimes when he's had enough he mutters to me that she must be trying to 'achieve' something by crying, so I've told him my experience. He has said he realises he doesn't respond to it well and we're going to talk about it some more.

Has anyone else had any experience like mine? Or do you think there's always something manipulative there, even if you don't think so yourself when you're upset?

YANBU. I mean, yeah it is manipulative in some way (hoping for someone to help or change things, though obviously people still cry alone and it won't work then) but that's getting a bit philosophical and pointless (like how there's no such thing as selflessness because it benefits the group, and hence you and your family - yeah, but still I think we can make a divide between selfish and selfless more broadly!)

Please do stop your husband muttering like that when she's crying because it will not help. I'm glad he's at least listening to you about it.

I cried a lot as a child but I was fully mentally fucked up due to abuse and neglect so I don't know how to compare it. This seems developmentally normal and your response seems healthy.

I was similar as a child, and definitely wasn't ever consoled -so I certainly wasn't looking for that! In all honesty, I think being told to shut up/being asked what I was crying for now etc has contributed enormously to my inability to express emotion as an adult - particularly sorrow or anger.

I think absolutely, tears can be about manipulation - but they definitely don't have to be, and it can actually cause harm in situations where it's not to be so dismissive. You can generally tell, I think when it's about manipulation - there's usually sidelong glances to make sure the tears have been noticed etc

I think you should tell your husband that he should consider very carefully before dismissing your daughters tears in this way.

I was also a "crier" (still am, to a lesser extent) and like you I hated it, hated people looking at me when I was crying and would be desperately trying to control myself and get away from others. I tend to ignore people who are upset for this reason, assuming they don't want a fuss and have been considered 'cold'

As a pp said, I think you can usually tell when it's for attention, especially with children.

I wonder too if there's a gender aspect to this ; related to so much negativity around men showing emotion.

I once had an argument with a male friend of mine, who insisted the only reason women cry is to evoke a guilty response in men. I told him that it was very arrogant to assume I was crying for his attention. It was about the way I was feeling, not the way he was feeling! It was actually quite an interesting conversation in terms of uncovering the way we were both viewing situations. (And might not have been down to gender so much as other factors of course)

Crying is fairly healthy. Better that then what we do to boys and get them to subsume all their fear and sadness into rage!

Does DH know how to manage emotions? And help her manage hers? I find DD gets out of anger, tears or frustration much more easily if I genuinely empathize. "You're right, that's rotten, your foot must really hurt". Or whatever. She then tends to say, "no it's fine". Tears can be unmet need. Meet the need, lose the tears.

Oh but it can be extremely manipulative. After a lifetime of unmet needs it can turn very passive aggressive.

If someone is absolutely vile to you, says truly despicable things and intentionally upsets you so much that you cry, and then accuses you of deliberately crying on purpose to make them feel bad... how about then?

That's what XH used to do to me. Bastard.

I don't think being emotional is such a bad thing OP. I am sure some people can/do turn on tears to manipulate, (seen many an instance at work) but I wasn't allowed to cry when a child and I was shy, anxious & emotional. It's led to my Counsellor telling me not crying because I was taught to see it as 'weak' just leads to repressed emotions festering, which fuels depression. If I do cry now I say to myself OK, so you're upset, why are you - and what can you do to feel less upset. That way its out & over in minutes & I'm dealing with that emotion, not bottling it all up. I actually feel better now I cry more often, which sounds weird!

It can of course be totally manipulative but genuine tears are not imo manipulative.

They are an expression of a persons innermost feelings and real tears are not particularly controllable by the person shedding them. They are a symptom, an end result if you like not the root cause.

Sincerely, a frustrated crier!

I'm not a crier. I get a bit choked and watery-eyed sometimes, but I can't remember the last time I cried (except when I was pregnant - couldn't stop). My DD has been suffering with depression (getting better, gradually) and has had whole-day crying, most of which she has tried to hide. My sister has had a horrible few years with her cheating, lying husband, and tears are frequently near the surface for her. So, no - crying isn't always manipulative. I agree with you OP

This was me as a child and teenager. I cried when I got angry and frustrated. I cried when I was hurt or scared. I still cry at sad parts of books. I hate being a crier when things get stressful at work because I'm acutely aware my credibility is draining away with every tear - but one thing I have never wanted is attention. In fact I usually want to erase myself from the scene until my face has returned to normal.

Sometimes I cry alone as I don’t like crying in front of other people but sometimes if I’m really upset or distressed I will cry in front of my fiancé.

DH can sometimes be really good at managing emotions sometimes, and not at all at others... me too sometimes, to be honest. He realises he has a strong reaction to crying, often too strong... I wonder if it comes from his mum who is a crier, sometimes at slightly ridiculous things. Thinking about it, sometimes the way she cries seems a bit manipulative (she is definitely someone who can turn up the guilt-factor and can play the victim), but there may be a degree of just not being able to help herself too. But that might be why crying sometimes puts DH on edge, as he associates it with her and her victim-card playing.

@GallicosCats - yes, that's me too, I even cry at sad bits in crap kids cartoons and stuff, and it is such a waste or energy sometimes, and I know what you mean about feeling you're losing your credibility.

I could have written this. I can never stand up for myself as it brings on the tears but then this seems manipulative. I hate it because if someone tries to undermine my performance I have absolutely no way of responding because I break down.

I actually think the scenario where tears could genuinely be described as cold, calculating manipulation (in the way the people you've encountered characterised it) is very rare. Bearing in mind that smiling sweetly when asking for a favour is also a form of "manipulation", as is trying to get a child to view tidying up as a game so they'll do it without fussing. And really so are many of our interactions as humans when you think about their purpose.

It's certainly not what you've described yourself or your daughter experiencing.

Part of being a child is learning emotional regulation. As you've experienced to your cost, having people shame you or blame you as you go through that process has very damaging consequences. The tears are part of learning to regulate your emotions and learning to self soothe. Like you said, you didn't want to be consoled, it was just your emotions spilling out. If you hadn't had the nasty reactions you got you would have been able to learn to self soothe and learn that you can survive feeling intense emotion without feeling there was something wrong or shameful about yourself.

If he's receptive your DH might find it helpful to read about child development in terms of emotional regulation and the problems it could create for your DD in adulthood if he continues the way he is. If he's not, perhaps you could do some reading so you can have some points you can put across yourself.

As for attention seeking... Attention is a human need. We all need attention - again, other than the forms of so called "attention seeking" our culture has labelled as unacceptable, think about all the other kinds we engage in that are considered acceptable (you're attention seeking if you strike up conversation - you want that person's attention so you can talk to them, you want their attention on you while you talk).

If somebody is seeking attention it's because they have unmet needs. It is not something that should be shamed. Once you meet the needs then they won't need to seek the attention anymore. That is a much healthier and more loving scenario.

I assume when your daughter was a baby she cried when she needed your attention. Why was it acceptable for her to seek the attention she needed as a baby, but not as a young child?

It is healthy to seek out the fulfilment of our needs, it is healthy to seek out attention and affection and connection from our fellow humans. It's part of being human.

It's good that he's listening, but he does need to act as well. If he's of the view that what happened to you was simply what happened to you, then there is a much wider body of evidence on emotional dysregulation and the problems it causes in adulthood, which is what he is setting your daughter up for if he carries on like this.

It is healthy to be able to cry and to allow ourselves to feel our emotions. Feeling and expressing emotion, and crying, are important ways of releasing tension and distress that otherwise build and build and build. The world would be an easier, better place for many of us if we'd never been made to feel we had to squash them away because there was something wrong with us for feeling.

Shaming children is toxic. They don't have any other perspective to counterbalance or dislodge the shame implanted in them by the adults around them.

I honestly would not have a clue how to squeeze tears out of my eyes to manipulate someone. I mean genuinely no idea how actors do this for tv.

On the other hand I cannot stop tears welling up sometimes when I don’t want them to. I have cried a few times from frustration or embarrassment and it’s mortifying. I do everything I can to hide it, distract people, get away... but I don’t know how to stop it.

So yes op. I totally agree.

Funny that when someone —a man— loses their temper nobody says “oh they’re just doing that for attention”.

I used to cry a lot as a child, but I was a victim of childhood abuse, so there was a lot going on inside. It never got me any help, so it wasn't manipulative in any way. I was just told off for 'grizzling' and was smacked. I was never comforted, but then I couldn't cope with physical contact of any sort. The tears were really embarrassing to me.

My DM on the other hand uses the 'waterworks' in a very manipulative way, to stop me talking about what happened to us as children, she says she doesn't want it to ruin her time with her GDDs. So I'm running out of sympathy for her tears. (Obviously I know that it must be harrowing to hear about what we went to at the hands of our abusive F, but she shouldn't inflict it on DSis and me.)

I’m a crier when I get frustrated or angry

I cry a lot. I can’t remember crying when I was a child as no one would have come and comforted me anyway.
I honestly try not to cry but the tears just roll down my cheeks even when I am fighting hard not to. I have had quite a lot to cry about lately but on occasion I must admit I have enjoyed wallowing. I cry alone and in front of people.
For me it is a release. But i know it also can be used to manipulate.
Everyone is different though, as I have one son who cry’s easily and one daughter who rarely cries.
It’s a big deal for my husband to cry and it has a profound effect in me.

Ugh. I had a run in with a woman at work last week, I honestly have never had anyone speak to me so rudely or disrespectfully. I felt the tears brewing through sheer shock and frustration (she was very senior to me and I felt so shocked I just couldn't think straight), so I took myself off and had a quiet cry in the loos for a couple of minutes. I cleaned myself up and returned to my desk, only for her to stand over me and demand "Everyone seems to think I've upset you, what have I done?" I was immediately on the verge of tears and, not wanting to cry in the office asked her "Please could we talk about it later? I really can't do this now." I had to ask her 3 times before I had to race off to the loos again for another sob.

I felt completely humiliated, I honestly could not have stopped the tears from falling if my life had depended on it. I'm sure it could have been seen as manipulative, but it wasn't.

So, I suspect it's all in the perception. Yes, some people can, will and do cry to manipulate, but there are plenty of others who would love to remain stony faced in even the most upsetting of situations, who simply cannot hold back the tears. I wish I was one of the hard nuts!

I have seen people using crying as an attention seeking tool. I think it's pretty obvious, usually in the flamboyant body language, descending into loud wails if they don't get enough attention.
Having said that, I am also someone who cries very easily. I am always trying not to draw attention to myself if it happens and am usually trying to slink away somewhere private.

It’s an interesting one and I can completely see where you’re coming from OP and your daughter is lucky you understand her.

It’s something that’s cropped up in my relationship, I’m a big crier, more so when happy or just moved than sad and never really when angry or frustrated. It took some doing to get DH to understand that it’s literally water coming from my eyes. It doesn’t mean I’m heartbroken, nothing needs fixing, no one is to blame and there’s nothing he needs to do.

His mum is a hugely manipulative person who bursts into violent gasping tears when she’s not getting her way and his childhood prepared him for a first marriage where his ex would start a row or things wouldn’t go her way and then she’d cry and he’d be the bastard who’d upset her, she won, he lost. She’s still at it playing the same tricks on my stepchildren, I’ve heard her on the phone saying “you don’t want mummy to cry do you, you don’t want to make mummy sad”. It’s toxic and very unhealthy and thankfully for my stepson in particular it’s become an in joke that when I’m happy I usually have a small weep and tears are a completely normal reaction to a range of emotions. Someone crying doesn’t mean the other person crying is in the wrong or a hateful arsehole.

I’ve been lucky and never been accused of crying for attention or sympathy and I can see from these posts how awful that has to be. I think though that for some people their response to tears is driven by frustration if that’s not how they show emotion and they can’t understand it.

DH has cried a few times over the years but I’m well aware when desperately sad things have happened in our lives that me crying and him not doesn’t mean I’m sadder than he is, it just comes out differently.

This is an interesting read for me as I'm NOT a crier. My mum and sister are and growing up I can remember the frustration of them crying and making a fuss and getting all the attention. Even if I needed comfort just as much it was given to the ones wth the tears. That definitely had an effect on me.

I was a child so didn't have the emotional intelligence yet to understand that's just how they were and it wasn't manipulative.

I think I've probably been holding onto those feelings my whole life as even now I find myself frustrated with public criers. It's good to read this thread and work through my thoughts on it.

I’m a crier... with frustration, with embarrassment...I just can’t stop the tears coming and then I end up crying more because I’m annoyed at myself for crying and not being able to stop!!

As a child I remember being told off for crying so it was something I really consciously tried not to do. Unsuccessfully usually.

I work in a stressful environment in the number of times I’ve had to excuse myself from meetings is utterly embarrassing.

Has anyone ever had therapy to explore it further?! I’d be keen to be able to control it better!

I think it can be a way to get what you want but it can also be a way of getting out frustration and the last resort when you don’t know how else to manage your emotions.
When DD cries it can sometimes seem like it’s to get what she wants but other times it’s because she doesn’t have the language or emotional literacy to explain it, she knows she feels something negative and doesn’t want to feel that way but isn’t sure how to manage it or what to do.