To think that we all 'damage' our kids a bit, and it's not the end of the world

[Echobelly]

As Larkin said ' They fuck you up your mum and dad/They may not mean to, but they do'...

There's a lot of anxiety created for parents - well, for mothers especially, thanks Patriarchy - that things we do or say or don't do or don't say 'damage' our kids. And I think there are things about all our parenting that causes what the media might call 'damage' to our kids, but what does that really mean?

At the end of the day, unless we are actually serious cruel or neglectful, what this means is that our parenting style might mean our kids might grow up oversensitive to criticism, not great at intimacy, have a bad temper, be shy, talk too much, find it a bit hard to trust people or whatever. But you know what? They'll still have relationships, hold down jobs and have satisfying lives despite those traits.

I think parents need to forgive themselves more - yes, our actions do have an impact on our kids, some of it negative, but the negatives are extremely unlikely to be devastating in the normal course of things.

Thank you lance - I appreciate that. We are at a tough stage right now where we don’t know what’s wrong and I’m doubting everything. I think we have guilt no matter what.

Thanks @allthgoodusernamesaretaken - I have asked my husband to look at that, as it touches interestingly on some points where I feel he has difficulties. I think he hasn't lost a touch of his mother's 'second-generation-immigrant' syndrome as he calls it, where there's this anxiety that you must do everything right and your kids mustn't 'let the side down'. The bit about accepting your kids for who they are immediately made me think of how challenging he finds at that while he is a natural mathematician, our son has now been through 3 years of school and is still barely grasping the basics of maths! Also DH tries to offer kids 'help' to learn things he'd like them to learn, not what they need to learn, as referenced in the article. He means well, but it sometimes ends in him losing his temper, which is not helpful.

Regarding those who have been through difficult childhoods, I totally agree this doesn't have to mean being 'broken'. I am filled with admiration for my mum who had a very difficult relationship with her own mother. My grandmother was cold and unloving towards her, though my mum has forgiven her because she knows it was due to the fact that tragically, her two siblings died before the age of 3 and her mother therefore distanced herself from her surviving child for fear of getting too attached to her. I always think my mum might have responded either by being cold herself or by being overbearing and smothering as a parent, but she was neither, she just has created a stable life for us and always expressed her love for us. So yes, people do come back from traumatic childhoods and become great parents too.

A family friend had a parish priest who used to joke that you could only be the perfect mother if you also had the perfect child, and you'd have to be prepared to see him crucified at 33.

Confusssed - a lot of your daughters' personality could be due to genetics and luck and not just your parenting.

That seems to be the message in the article linked to earlier:

• Good enough parents respect their children and try to understand them for who they are.
Good enough parents do not think of themselves as the producers, creators, or shapers of their children. They see their children as complete human beings right now, and they see their job as that of getting to know those beings. They understand that the parent-child relationship goes both ways, but not entirely. It is a relationship between equals in the sense that the two parties are equally important, equally deserving of happiness, equally deserving of the opportunity to create their own goals and strive to achieve them (as long as such striving does not harm others). In another sense, though, it is an unequal relationship. At least when the child is young, the parent is bigger, stronger, wiser (we hope), better at reasoning; and the parent controls the resources that the child needs for survival. To make this unbalanced relationship work, the good enough parent strives to get to know the child, so as to understand the child’s needs and wants.

If we are good enough parents, we don’t take much credit, nor much blame, for our children's actions; we just concentrate on understanding and helping where help is required.

I'm always a bit amazed that people don't spend loads of time reading up on child psychology and spending time with kids before having their own

Well for DS1 I read all the baby books going - but it put me under so much pressure! I worried if he wasn't meeting this milestone, or doing this or that behaviour. I worried that I couldn't do this or that like the books said! I got conflicting messages from different books! The books made me feel shit!

For ds2 I didn't have time to look at books and was a much happier, more relaxed mum as a result! :)

(Oh, and I'm a psychologist! Have been for many years! But knowing loads of psychology really doesn't make that much difference when it comes to parenting your own children! It just makes you realise how crap you are being, or gives you added pressure to do things 'right' - it also makes you paranoid about what you are doing and what mental health difficulties you might be causing!!)

wine have you seen this? www.swansea.ac.uk/press-office/latest-research/newresearchfindslinkbetweensomebabybooksandpostnataldepression.php
I definitely fell into the trap of reading too much and getting too anxious with dd1. I binned them all once I began to see that so many books actively contradicted each other!

Agree with epic, I've been amazed at how different my two DDs are, despite very similar parenting. Yes you can influence and hopefully show a good example (agree with pps who say being able to apologise when you do something wrong is very, very important) but there are so many other factors which shape a child. Genetics, environment (not just parental environment).

I always remember vividly a conversation with friends about when parents should intervene in a child's life and how much adversity is 'OK' - or even beneficial - for the child to suffer.

A friend had a child who was being bullied quite badly at school. It had taken ages, and lots of nightmares, before the child told them (the bully had said if he told then his parents would die....) but once known, the school were being very pro-active. My friend was really quite traumatised and hated sending DS to school every day, and was considering changing schools. Some other friends (in probably quite a tone deaf way!) were saying they thought part of the problem with kids in general these days is that they were too molly coddled and exposure to a bit of adversity is good. The question is where do you draw the line? It's probably different for every child.

Presumably most would agree that the whole Trump forcibly removing small children from their parents and throwing them in jail to cry is bad long term for the child's mental health. But similarly wrapping a child in cotton wool and not allowing them to experience any disappointments, not ever letting them fail, or have difficult times with friendships, or make mistakes and suffer the consequences is also bad and makes them ill-equipped for adult life.

I suppose it's probably the case that for decisions which are a bit difficult and are in a grey area are those for which either decision is probably OK. I do think though that parents are guilt tripped about this though quite a lot. Most parents do their best - I think the main thing is to be honest and if you get something wrong to admit it and do what you can to put it right. Very hard not to err on the side of being overprotective if you have a sensitive child though.

epicclusterfuck excellent post.

This is exactly how we parent. They are all individuals and we treat them as complete human beings, right now.

My parents, saw us as extensions of them, didn't respect any feelings we had, laughed at us when we made mistakes, trotted out the 'told you so' line each time they were right, rejected our feelings as teenagers as 'typical teenage hormones' and never took anything seriously.

They were in charge, even in my thirties. 'I'm still your mother you know!' was trotted out regularly.

We will never be people in our own right, not to them. I still got the silent treatment as an adult.

I will NEVER abuse my position as the bigger/stronger adult. I will NEVER dismiss their feelings as unimportant. I will NEVER make love conditional.

It doesn't mean I don't have shit days, or stressy days, and I don't always get everything right, but if I do fuck up, I say sorry.

I see my family members as all equals. We're just all at different stages in life, learning as we go.

Epicclusterfuck, I think I love you. Reading your post was a real light bulb moment. I was good enough, not complete shit. Thank you so much.

I'd love to take the credit but those bits were from the article posted up thread earlier! It resonated with me a bit as I was reading the thread about Facebook bragging about children's achievements and could not articulate to myself why it bothered me!

@epicclusterfuck’s post really resonated with me, too. My mother’s always shown massive pride in anything my brother or I ever achieved, which I used to view as a positive thing. Less so at times like a friend of hers’ 60th bday meal with 20-odd other women we didn’t know - I’d previously told my mum about a recent promotion and reasonable pay rise, and she found an opportunity to tell the whole table, asking me to tell everyone what my new salary was (it wasn’t even that big a deal). Now I think it’s part of her lack of boundaries and enmeshment - my achievements are hers. The flip-side for a child (in my case at least) is that you only feel loved when you’re ‘winning’.

Same whenever my kids do something good at school - she talks about how proud she is, how proud we must be etc, while I make a point of telling the kids they should be proud of what they’ve achieved. Second guessing my own reactions is exhausting but essential.

I like to see our everyday mistakes as "creating resilience" and therefore a good thing but some parents really do damage their children in unfathomable ways

"I will NEVER abuse my position as the bigger/stronger adult. I will NEVER dismiss their feelings as unimportant. I will NEVER make love conditional."

I'm going to it sure about that. I completely metely agree on the unconditional love but parents who are "in charge" provide security and parents who set too much store by their children's feelings create people with no resilience. As with everything everything , it's about balance rather than "never" IMO

@ThePlatypusAlwaysTriumphs have you sat down with your daughter and had a serious talk with her about this attitude she has? It sounds like insecurity in her own abilities to me - an internal monologue something along the lines of 'I feel I'm not good enough but I can't face it so I'll blame everyone else for my problems then it won't be my fault' type of thing?

She'll never be happy unless she can take responsibility for herself, own her fuckups and learn from them. Maybe it would be helpful to be explicit about this with her, let her know you know it's scary but you'll help her how you can, etc.

ReadingRiot

I'm still in charge, and I'm still the parent. I just won't abuse my position, dismiss their feelings or use love conditionally. I'm pretty confident I can say never to all of those things.

YANBU, im really aware that some of my issues are not ideal for my dc and some of them could even be damaging, but quite honestly i do what I can with what ive got.

Please google "good enough parenting" and "Winnicott". There is so much to reassure you

Ah, Echobelly, your parents weren't abusive...

I need to add, I cried in the shower so hard about my abusive parents that a neighbour called the Police and they came round to check I was okay. No one called when I was actually in danger growing up.