To think that we all 'damage' our kids a bit, and it's not the end of the world

[Echobelly]

As Larkin said ' They fuck you up your mum and dad/They may not mean to, but they do'...

There's a lot of anxiety created for parents - well, for mothers especially, thanks Patriarchy - that things we do or say or don't do or don't say 'damage' our kids. And I think there are things about all our parenting that causes what the media might call 'damage' to our kids, but what does that really mean?

At the end of the day, unless we are actually serious cruel or neglectful, what this means is that our parenting style might mean our kids might grow up oversensitive to criticism, not great at intimacy, have a bad temper, be shy, talk too much, find it a bit hard to trust people or whatever. But you know what? They'll still have relationships, hold down jobs and have satisfying lives despite those traits.

I think parents need to forgive themselves more - yes, our actions do have an impact on our kids, some of it negative, but the negatives are extremely unlikely to be devastating in the normal course of things.

For me it's not just about how kids will turn out but how they experience their childhood in the here and now. I knew i didn't want to constantly hit, criticise, bully, bitch about my children in their hearing and over burden them with my problems like my mum did as it caused me suffering at the time and i barely tolerate my mum now. Luckily I've not found it at all hard not to do the above and i get on well with my teen kids!

"Women come under more pressure from other women,"

It started with Child Psychologists stating that the Mother was the only important primary Carer and what she did or didn't do was crucial.

Then there was the attitude that whatever the Father did, DV, abuse, financial abuse etc, didn't really count.

If anything, I've found that Women get at each other for "making a rod for your own back" and not going concentrating on going to work/housework, rather than the children.

The Newspaper's headlines also states what the Mother did wrong, but fails to mention the Father. A famous Women couldn't abandon their children and not be vilified, the way famous Men have.

It's an extension of everyday sexism.

""our parenting style might mean our kids might grow up oversensitive to criticism, not great at intimacy, have a bad temper, be shy, talk too much, find it a bit hard to trust people or whatever. But you know what? They'll still have relationships, hold down jobs and have satisfying lives despite those traits.""

I think you are being too dismissive of those issues, they go into the category of having poor Mental Health.

But in general, Mother's are judged too harshly, as are Women.

I was just thinking earlier today about a friend with no kids who has a difficult relationship with her mother telling me about this book. Saying how great it was and how true it was. It was a revelation to her and she wanted to share it with the world.
Meanwhile my dd had been hospitalised for around 2 years then with severe anorexia. The other friend who was with us was trying his hardest to get her to shut up.

One of the biggest things to move on from in adulthood is how imperfect your parents were....all the things the did or didn't do. They did their best with what they had, what they had learned/inherited from their own parents and so on and so on. I think having your own kids is a big epiphany to how it all works.

I grew up in an imperfect home. Not abusive though I was born in the 70s so probably was by today's standard.
My own kids grew up in an imperfect home too. Not abusive, lots of love and laughter, a bit shouty at times (from kids and adults) and a smattering of disfunction.
Our adult dd is still in hospital. It's been 8 years. She has gone NC with me and dh.
Our adult DS is doing well and happily lives at home with us.

@milktwosugars- yes. The amount of posts I see encouraging people to go NC is scary. Families are not perfect. The majority of the time situations can be managed by a little tolerance, emotional intelligence and managing your own boundaries. NC is a really extreme measure and the word abuse is thrown around on here like party balloons.

I'm trying so hard to relax and just enjoy my kids. I'm trying to apologise when I get it wrong. I suffered horrible anxiety with my first baby because I was so terrified of doing it wrong. I've poured over threads on here wondering if I've damaged my children, especially when I spent a year muddling through a fog of crushing depression, and I know I definitely wasnt the best parent. But I can move forward now and hope that period is behind us now.

I really like your post OP.

@Weedinosaurus and @milktwosugars - I agree on the NC point. It's about the most extreme measure there is, and although my mother has taken it with me and my kids when I didn't back her on something I thought was unreasonable, it's not something I'd do unless I felt my kids' wellbeing or my mental health was at risk and there were no other options. That said, things like 'managing your own boundaries' can be very difficult to apply if you haven't learned how to do this in childhood - it goes against the grain, and it's a skill you have to make a real effort to build. It's what I've had to do to maintain a relationship with my mother, but it's still really hard.

What I do understand is that she did the best she could. I believe she's the way she is largely due to neglect in her own childhood. On the whole, I think we're right to challenge ourselves on whether we're 'good parents', but we also have to be realistic about the fact that we're partly the product of our own childhoods.

...and for what it's worth, I think being able to take responsibility and apologise to your kids when you do get it wrong is worth so much to your relationship with them/equipping them to do the same in the future.

One of the rarely-acknowledged advantages of becoming a mother/parent in your 40s, is that you have seen more of life and developed a bullshit/ irrelevance filter (ie become cynical).

I should think this is more down to personality. I had my first at 26 and did not have any trouble working out that birth is not something you can plan for.

@HelloEllo yes! My dd, 8, always loudly proclaims in the supermarket car park while I'm getting the bags out of the boot "Mum, do you remember that time when you shut the boot and it hit me on the head?".

Every. Single. Time.

(She was fine btw. Clearly didn't affect her memory).

Years ago my mum and I had a real heart to heart when I told her a few things she'd said or done in my childhood that really hurt/upset me/that I thought were deeply unfair/wrong. Then she listed a few big mistakes she'd made/things she'd said/decisions which she really regretted.

They were totally different lists. I couldn't even remember the incidents she regretted most and she couldn't recall mine.

Very true. It is purely a question of damaging in ways that are good for them I suppose (I know that sou DS a bit mad but think if some of the most important lessons you learnt in childhood, a good many of them will be damaging.)

Women come under more pressure from other women, when still at school, at the school gates, at work, from MILS, SILS, peers than they ever come under from men. So perhaps if some women weren't so incredibly bitchy, snide and demanding, some other women wouldn't feel inferior?

Have you heard of internalized misogyny, New? We live in a patriarchal society and women internalize the sexism around them.

I try to be the best feminist I can be. But occasionally, I might look at another woman and think, "Bloody hell, look at her hairy armpits" or "God that dress is a bit slutty." Then I catch myself and remember that it's men who have dictated that body hair is unacceptable, that men decided revealing parts of your body makes you immediately whorish or promiscuous. I have to fight against that internalized mindset and remember that women are free to make their own choices and it's absolutely not my place to judge anybody.

@enildam but a lot of that pressure arises from 'femenist' principles: 'she's a bad example for her daughters because she's a sahm.', 'she shouldn't dress like that to please men, it will teach her sons that they are entitled to expect women to groom themselves for make approval.', 'she shouldn't always put her children first, it will teach her daughters to put themselves last and will tea h her sons to expect unrealistic dedication from their future wives', 'she should make her daughters clean up it will groom them to take on dibestic burdens as they get older', 'she shouldn't clean up after her sons, it will make them bad husbands'. And so on. It's not internalised misogyny, it just women being unnecessarily competitive.

I think apologising is important. DH comes from a home where there was/is a lot of arguing and shouting and sometimes manipulative behaviour from his mother that bordered on abusive. He has a temper and does lose it a bit too often (though has been getting better and better), but he also does apologise, which he says is something his parents seldom did - his mum in particular will still rather demand an apology for something that didn't even happen than admit she was wrong about something.

@BarbarianMum - that's really interesting, doesn't surprise me though. I mentioned to DD (now 10) an incident when I was really horrible to her when she was little that I am still ashamed of, and she doesn't recall it at all. DD (6) has memory like a goldfish and probably doesn't remember anything from one week to the next

At the end of the day, unless we are actually serious cruel or neglectful, what this means is that our parenting style might mean our kids might grow up oversensitive to criticism, not great at intimacy, have a bad temper, be shy, talk too much, find it a bit hard to trust people or whatever. But you know what? They'll still have relationships, hold down jobs and have satisfying lives despite those traits

Completely disagree.

My parents couldn't be described as seriously neglectful, I was clothed and fed. But my father was a misogynist and my mother over critical of everything. So I grew up with zero self esteem, and the relationships I had were all abusive ones.

I am NC. And it wasn't because they didn't reach my heights of superior parenting; we all make mistakes.

The thing I have learnt as a parent myself is, we can all fuck up. But saying sorry is paramount (my parents never said sorry, ever), and then being better moving on.

That's what (hopefully) my children will look back on.

Did my parents fuck up? Sometimes
Did they apologise when they did? Yes.
Did they then change? Yes.

My parents? They fucked up massively, never apologised, blamed me for everything, and never changed.

YANBU!

good thread.

Interesting to hear the other side @gluteustothemaximus , and I'm sorry about what you went through with them.

There's no such thing as perfection, and no perfect parents. (Although of course there are many, many excellent parents).

I am seriously perplexed by the fact that many people seem unable to understand this, and insist that everything would be "just perfect" if only... (and then usually blame other people).

No worries Echo, I just guess it's hard to hear that perhaps, as I wasn't beaten/abused in that sense, maybe I'm just oversensitive to my childhood and blame my parents for my failures. I know that's not what you said, but it's what my parents tell everyone. That I'm an ungrateful bitch, who thinks I'm the perfect parent, and I was told many many times 'wait till your perfect kids are teenagers, I hope they put you through the worst shit of your life'.

They're peaches.

I get really worried when parents accept they WILL fuck up their kids in one way or another. I don't think you can, and I don't think you always will.

If the majority of memories are good, if you keep your promises as best as you can, always try your best, apologise when you lose your shit, I think you'll end up with well balanced loving children.

I do have a teenager now, and have had for a while. He's lovely. Two fingers up to you mum and dad!!

@Racecardriver

I'm going to stop you right there. The things you are describing are not "feminist principles". Feminism recognizes that being a SAHM is as worthy and valuable a job as any other kind. Most feminists would never discourage their daughters from wanting to be SAHMs because it's about CHOICE. Wanting to be a doctor and wanting to be a mother are equally wonderful choices and should be respected as such.

Your other points are much the same: "She shouldn't dress like that to please men, it will teach her sons that they are entitled to expect women to groom themselves for male approval." Again - feminism is about CHOICE. Women have the right to wear whatever the hell they like, and plenty of women are teaching their daughters this.

Feminism is a reaction TO the patriarchy. So it's impossible for this pressure to have arisen from women and "feminist principles" first.

I think for many of us, we try to avoid what our parents did 'wrong' and then just make a new mistake along the way.

My dad was very shouty, so I try to avoid this at all costs. But I'm probably too soft in the other way. Or I tell him not to shout in front of the kids which isn't great.

Obviously I'm trying to rein this in! But I think there are many normal levels of fucking up that we try to step around.

Then there are abusive/horrible parents which is a whole other thing.

Going to put an alternative view, which is that in many cases, it's not your parents that have fucked you up, but your genes. Larkin's quote was heavily influenced by Freud's made-up theories, which were culturally enormously influential back when he wrote that poem. Actually, studies of separated identical twins show that at least 50% of children's personalities (and their problems) are genetically inherited (excluding the damage done by parenting that is neglectful or abusive).

In addition, many psychologists now believe that parents have surprising little influence on how their children turn out - that the other 50% comes from environmental factors outside the home, mainly peer group behaviour and expectations. I'm a bit more skeptical of this, but they have statistical evidence and arguments to back it up.

The great thing about these ideas, is they are very emotionally liberating - I used to blame my parents for my shyness, for example, but now I realise it was just the luck of the draw, and my attitudes toward them are much better.

@eniledam I think you will find that a lot of femenist don't think like that. You can say that femenism respects a woman's right to choose but it doesn't stop femenists from notching when they don't think that women have made the right choice. Saying that a woman find armpit hair disgusting as a result of internalised misogyny (as opposed to as result of her own free thinking) is no different to saying that woman has made the decision to give up her career as a result of patriarchy and internalised misogyny as opposed to of her own free will. Feminists are just as bitch as the women who subscribe to mysiginistic ideas. You can't say that this is a problem with mysoginy. The problem is the way that people have a compulsion to compete with other members of their sex and express this through criticality (men do it to other men too although in different ways sometimes).

@kesstrel Twin studies are seriously, seriously flawed.

@Racecardriver

I think you will find that a lot of femenist don't think like that

Of course. There will always be some women who claim that they are feminists, but not embrace the ideas at the heart of it. For example, women who only support a brand of "white feminism".

Real feminism is about choice. It's about women supporting women. I don't think you have grasped this concept.

Even "free thinking" can be tainted with internalized misogyny.

Yes, we all screw our kids up, that's life.
...No it's fucking not
Are you being sarcastic? I thought not screwing your kids up was a basic requirement of parenting