To ask what vegetarianism achieves?

[Dancergirl]

Lots of threads about being veggie/vegan at the moment.

It's got me thinking - does being veggie or vegan have a direct positive influence on animal welfare? I can totally understand people's reasons for not eating meat or animal products, but are fewer animals killed as a result?

I understand that there is already huge wastage in meat production. Will meat production go down if there are enough vegetarians?

Great post GhostCurry.

“
@LighthouseSouth there are no humane dairy farms. Humane means kindness and compassion. Nothing about dairy farming is compassionate. The mother cow has their baby taken away at birth because if they don't then the baby cow will drink the mild that's for us.“

Calf At Foot dairying is a way of rearing dairy cows that allows the young to stay with their mothers

Thank you IfyouseeRitaMoreno
It’s a shame these threads can become a bit heated, because I think they’re so interesting.
To the OP - I don’t agree that one person’s actions won’t make a difference, the more vegetarians and vegans there are the more alternatives there are, the more restaurant options there are, the more normalised it becomes. My reduced meat eating is a direct result of being around many others who were veggie or vegan. It all helps and creates an atmosphere in which meat-free options become the norm. It’s already happening and can only improve, I hope.

OP "my first thought would be to do something to stop that happening and my not eating meat would not have any impact."

what a bonkers statement. that's the first easy impact you can make!

again, demand and supply...

thank you to MissyMooo for information which has tipped me to vegan although tbh I was getting there anyway.

In terms of some countries now eating more meat - yes some countries only just got McDonald's etc so there will be that.

but the real problem here is overpopulation tbh, but I don't want to derail so won't start on about it.

Ok but is there any real factual evidence that meat production has reduced as a result of reduced demand?

lighthouse

A bit old, but I remember reading about this paper on overpopulation vs overconsumption of animal products. Animal products don’t come out of it well, although clearly, overpopulation is also s huge problem. I sometimes wonder if I’d feel so compelled to curb my consumption of meat and animal products if I didn’t also have some guilt about having two dcs.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/population-crisis-farm-animals-laying-waste-to-planet

Dancegirl "Ok but is there any real factual evidence that meat production has reduced as a result of reduced demand?"

ask farmers. Like I say, with people reproducing at this rate, to some extent demand for everything will adjust accordingly.

you seem to be very keen for vegetarianism to "achieve" something, but I was just thinking I don't want to eat meat, I wasn't worried about "achieving".

the more vegetarians and vegans there are the more alternatives there are, the more restaurant options there are, the more normalised it becomes. My reduced meat eating is a direct result of being around many others who were veggie or vegan. It all helps and creates an atmosphere in which meat-free options become the norm. It’s already happening and can only improve, I hope

Yes definitely and I completely agree. I'm a meat eater but enjoy cooking and eating vegetarian dishes much more than I used to.

But animals are still being treated badly, what can be done to stop that?

Fair point lighthouse and I suppose everyone has their own reasons for not eating meat.

OP "But animals are still being treated badly, what can be done to stop that?"

has this whole thing been a long winded way of asking that question?

the only way to stop animals being treated badly is to stop eating them. There'd have be to be about 3 people eating meat in order to ensure that a cow was killed in a "humane" way.

that's another reason I stopped - I realised that I was looking at labels like high welfare, annoyed that people were serving halal etc and I thought, screw it, the easiest way to deal with the problem is not to eat it.

Ever been to a dairy farm and had the farmer explain how it works ? Have you seen the cows walk in from the green pasture, seen the huge bulls ? Have you seen the fields of free range pigs ? Don't rely on YouTube go and see yourself. It's not generally cost effective to run a small farm

Deer in Britain have no natural predators. If we didn’t cull them regularly they would strip bark from trees, kill forests and destroy habitat, plus end up starving themselves by over grazing. Even my otherwise vegetarian daughter eats culled venison to save wasting it. Ditto culled grey squirrels and rabbits. In the natural world, prey animals are regularly chased, killed and eaten by predators. It isn’t “cruel”, it keeps the herd strong and healthy. Farming is simply an organised version of this, to cope with the much larger demand of city based human populations.
I do agree that we need welfare standards for farms and abattoirs, but the U.K. has some of the most stringent in the world.

The problem is that there are too many people in the world. If we all ate in a way that had minimal affect on the environment (which isn't just about meat or animal products) then there wouldn't be enough for everyone. There are some food industries that have worse impact than others, so it would be good to reduce those, but we can't stop humans harming animals unless there is a drastic reduction in the human population. I can't see culling the human population being too popular somehow...

I completely agree whatsthatcoming. I thought this o myself years ago when I was vegan and fellow vegans declared themselves cruelty free. Usually very new, maybe a little overzealous vegans. Meanwhile they were stuffing palm laden convenience foods into their gobs and saying how fab it was that it was all cruelty free. No, it isn’t. I still believe that vegan is usually the best way to eat from an ethical POV, but it is not cruelty free. All creatures live at the expense of other creatures and humans especially do this. We could not exist without farming and all farming, including arable, is harmful. That’s why I think it’s very silly to get too self righteous about one’s choices, judging vegetarians for not being vegan etc.

It’s important to do the best you can and the best you can sustain.

I also think some people just want the vegan label without thinking any more about it. As I say, I still think vegan is a valid choice and I try to eat mainly vegan for that reason.

Palm oil*

And various other typos sorry.

Absolutely Rhubarb. That's the issue I have with some vegan arguments - if you follow them to their natural conclusion then the 'right' thing to do would be to kill yourself.

Whilst so much animal cruelty goes on, how can anyone who cares about animals sleep at night regardless of what they eat or don't eat?

So little logic in this!

I don't like human's suffering. I can't stop it all wars/abuse/hideousness, but I can do the best I can to make any difference. I don't think, well there will be always be problems and so get involved with supporting them.

I've been vegetarian since 1990, and have seen HUGE changes in response to increasing vegetarianism. I have literally eaten cabbage as a meal when in Germany in 1990, so vast improvement. Even in the UK, you used to have to go to a vegetarian restaurant to get a decent meal in the past - not true now.

Becoming veggie is so much easier now - so more people will do it. Plus, humanity is ascending and turning away from the violence of slaughter. Every one of us who says no is a step in that direction - hooray! xx

It's much easier to be vegetarian or vegan in certain parts of the world now, there is much more choice and people are more aware. However. I don't think that vegans are morally better than meat eaters. It's a bit like saying one religion is better than another religion. It's a lifestyle choice. However, many people only eat vegetables because that is all they can afford or grow. Examole Are you saying people who live in icey places where there are few vegetables and live off the land/reindeer/seals are morally not as good as a vegetarian. It's very easy to be moral in a modern society with money and lots if choices. The cruelest animal is MANKIND

@Castl3onb0at

no I haven't been to a dairy farm and I really would like an explanation of how it works apart from what I can find online but I was born and raised in London and don't know anyone who can tell me. Plus I don't really imagine a dairy farmer wants me to call up and book a visit

All monocrops harm the environment, even soy or vegetables.
One problem is there are so many mouths to feed that agriculture has changed out of all recognition. Its now on such a huge scale that multi national companies are the only ones big enough to keep up.
Another is that the carbon footprint of moving crops around the world is unsustainable, whatever the produce.

Make whichever choice you feel most comfortable with but don't kid yourself that one is morally any better than another.

@whatsthecomingoverthehill of course there would be enough for everyone! Do you know how much crops are fed to the animals to keep them alive until we slaughter them? A very high percentage!!

Do you know how many animals are killed and habitats destroyed to grow crops for human consumption?

Overpopulation.

This is why we can't have nice things.