To ask what vegetarianism achieves?

[Dancergirl]

Lots of threads about being veggie/vegan at the moment.

It's got me thinking - does being veggie or vegan have a direct positive influence on animal welfare? I can totally understand people's reasons for not eating meat or animal products, but are fewer animals killed as a result?

I understand that there is already huge wastage in meat production. Will meat production go down if there are enough vegetarians?

Dairy is also very cruel (I don't, btw, tho I know your question wasn't directed at me). But cutting meat is still reducing your participation in cruelty. Cutting dairy too is obviously better but not doing so doesn't negate the benefit of cutting meat.

I think a lot of meat eaters (my necessarily anyone on this thread) get a bit defensive and latch onto dairy as a stick to beat vegetarians with. But any reduction in use of animal products - even if just meat free Mondays or veganuary - is helpful and should be encouraged. There's no point in telling people that because they aren't doing everything they might as well be doing nothing.

*not necessarily

im vegetarian because i cant handle the thought of depriving a sentient being of life just for my pleasure. Im not sure what effect it has on the meat industry at large... i just cant eat it because i dont believe its right to. There are plenty of other things to eat.

It's a good point henpecked, environmentally anything is better than nothing, it's just the logic I don't understand.

Being vegetarian because meat is cruelty but then having cheese and dairy?! I just honestly don't get it. If you don't eat meat to be environmentally friendly, fair enough. Anything is something, but not eating it because you can't bear the thought of the animals being killed but then having dairy and funding the long drawn out torture of hens and cows just makes bog all sense to me.

Excellent point Henpecked

I'm vegetarian and get given the spiel about the cruelty of the dairy industry by people like Storm Why are you trying to make me feel shit for doing something rather than everything while you do nothing?!

Well, actually I know what the answer is but the question is still fucking annoying.

But do you have milk/cheese haribo? Or are you totally vegan?

For example, soy plantations are responsible for much rainforest destruction too.

But the vast majority of that soy is fed to animals which are used for meat.

I don’t drink milk but stopping dairy took a lot longer and was a lot harder than stopping eating meat. I think this may be the case for a lot of people.

Compare the image of prepping a slimy, bloody, smelly piece of meat and taking veins, skin etc out vs milk that comes in a nice clean box covered in images of happy cows on beautiful green fields and I think you’ll see what I mean

I stopped eating meat later in life because all my life I kept having horrible nightmares about animals and woke up crying and panicked. One day it just felt right to stop and I never looked back, easiest and best decision I ever made.

So in the beginning it wasnt about trying to “accomplish” anything for me, it was just about easing my own guilt. As I read and thought more about it I learnt about the huge environmental consequences of the meat and dairy industry, not to mention the horrific conditions of the animals. Only then could I proudly start to defend my choice instead of trying to brush it off and apologizing for it when people pestered me about it.

Milk on the other hand took a lot longer for the above mentioned reasons. Luckily I love almond milk so that was an easy choice. Im still really struggling with diary and eggs sometimes but its something I really want to do.

Boode I'm not trying to make anyone feel like shit I've just never had an answer that has satisfied my question.

I've got 2 vegetarian friends and they skirt around the question.

I totally get you're doing something and that's great, you're doing more than me so truly well done - but what is so off putting about meat that isn't about milk/cheese/butter etc?? It would make more sense not to eat dairy than it would meat, if for cruelty/animal welfare reasons.

You see this is what I don't understand. Whilst so much animal cruelty goes on, how can anyone who cares about animals sleep at night regardless of what they eat or don't eat?

I'm with you OP. I'm a bit ignorant on this subject really so more than happy to stand corrected. Meat production is not going to stop. I find it hard to believe that a small proportion of vegetarians or vegans is going to have any impact on the way that animals are slaughtered and treated. Yes, the number may have gone up, but the trend won't be accelerated enough to make any sort of difference, surely?

Nixee I possibly just have a warped way of thinking.

I can see why meat would be more off-putting than clean milk and things in containers like butter etc. I've just never understood feeling guilty enough about eating dead animal but being alright drinkimg/eating the product of months of emotional/physical trauma.

At least with meat the animal died & isn't in pain anymore. Sure, the lead up to it wasn't great but being dead surely beats being stuck in a metal grate giving birth 10 times in a year and pumped full of hormones and having your babies ripped away from you

Personally Ive been vegetarian since I was 14. I don't eat meat or fish or use leather goods etc so fairly strict. However I do take medicines that are tested on animals. I don't drink milk (use soy/almond/whatever) but I do eat cheese and yoghurts and eat things with milk and eggs in etc. Why? My thing is all about not inflicting unnecessary cruelty. So I can be vegetarian etc etc without any health problems or issues for me, but going totally vegan for me personally wouldn't be great for my health. I also prioritise my health over animal welfare in terms of medicines (not vitamins, I take veggie ones). So thats my line and how my ethics operate. Its a system of belief and act of conscience. It doesn't have to make sense to anyone else. Its what I do and what I'm happy with.

I love animals and used to be vegan but I got sick so now eat minimal meat.
As a vegan I was annoying and preachy but I so like the food and ethos...just not the preachyness.

It really is a very simple question to answer Storm

There's been reasons given here. It is much, much harder and requires a much bigger sacrifice. Many veggies want to make this but convenience/time/money/taste/want stops us. Just like you and your meat

No need for faux handwringing at hypocritical veggies. Why try to knock people making their own ethical/taste choices because they either a. Don't align with your own or b. Are not entirely 'perfect'.

You know full well why all veggies aren't vegans - why try to make them feel bad about it when you are 100% supporting the meat industry.

I think you do it because you assume veggies feel superior and you are desperate to remind them they aren't.

At the end of the day you have to put your health first.

I'm not even vegetarian and I am irritated by your post.

If you don't buy meat, you don't fuel the cruelty so of course it makes a difference.

Storm do you give you charity? How much? Why not double the amount? Why not sell your house and live on the streets to give all that you have to charity?

Do you see how silly that sounds?

Just because you’re not doing all the good you can, it doesn’t mean that you should t do any good.

Vegetarians are making a stand and reducing the amount of people consuming meat. The fact that they aren’t vegan is t really here nor there is it?

They’re doing more for the welfare of animals than you (or me). Less than vegans but more than those who eat whatever they want.

Eating meat just feels wrong to me because It's decomposing flesh and I used to feel like a hypocrite because I love animals but I was supporting them being harmed. We don't have to eat meat. I ate meat to please people around me because it was easier for them.

I don't know what it achieves because eating meat is the norm and I feel it will be for a long time.

They do predict that in the next hundred years the meat industry will be smaller and after that it will end.

I’m not veggie or vegan, but have been both in the past from quite a young age. I think for me, it initially was the ick factor tbh. Like “ugh that’s a bit of dead cow? I’m not eating that”!

I’m now technically an omni, but I try to eat mainly vegan. I also try to avoid eating too much food which is otherwise unethical, like palm oil, soya, almonds, avocados etc. The reason I do it now is mainly because of the environment. I obviously hate animal cruelty too, (who doesn’t?), but it’s mainly the environment for me as, if the planet goes to shit at a rate of knots, every animal, including humans, will be effected 🤷‍♀️.

Where I live (Holland), the growing awareness of the cruel treatment of animals has definitely made a huge difference.

There have been nationwide programs developed for high animal welfare products. Farms/factories etc get 1-3 stars and each has different criterea for different animals.

As an example chicken at 1 or 2 stars still have their beaks cut but get more daylight/outside time etc than no stars, but 3 stars is all the other kwalifications + beaks left intact.

When this program started it was only on a few products in 1-2 supermarkets and now its almost everywhere for everything from dairy, eggs, meat, even frozen dinners etc. And working at a supermarket, I notice a ton more people buying them than before. The prices have gone down and there are lot of campaigns to promote them where for example people can visit the actual farms where the products come from with their kids and see how the animals are treated.

Anyhow, I have no idea if there are significantly more vegeterians/vegans here or not but people in general are a lot more conscious, there are a ton more veggie options in restaurants/supermarkets than before, and I don’t get funny looks anymore if I say Im a vegeterian!

So in the Netherlands at least, yes, we are definitely “achieving” progress towards a less cruel and greener future, even if its not overnight.

Storm have you never heard the phrase: 'don't let the best be the enemy of the good'? By dismissing the benefits of vegetarianism because it isn't as good as veganism you are spectacularly missing the point. Small changes should be encouraged and are often the stepping stone to larger changes. It seems like your 'all or nothing' approach is a convenient justification for you to do nothing.

Also I totally understand what you mean about the logic begind meat being icky and milk not. And I don’t think you are weird for not thinking meat is gross. I ate meat for many years and didnt think it was gross and couldnt connect the dots between my emotional distress with what I was eating.

My comment about the icky meat and the “nice” milk carton was intended to explain that I think a lot of people who are considering going veggie/vegan find quitting meat easier than diary. It has nothing to do with logic. Meat is very visually impactful, it has a strong smell, distinct textures and in some case looks very similar to our own flesh (especially plucked chicken skin ). Combine that with the whole carcasses most meat eaters have been exposed to at family dinners/restaurants etc, is it really hard to understand its a lot easier/more likely to be grossed out by looking at the actual flesh of an animal rather than a carton box? Milk requires a lot more thinking about for a lot people to even connect it to cruelty.

Meat production is not going to stop. I find it hard to believe that a small proportion of vegetarians or vegans is going to have any impact on the way that animals are slaughtered and treated

This is what I mean. I'm not criticising vegetarians/vegans, far from it, it's always commendable to stand up to what you believe in....but I just wonder how meat production is ever going to change.

If you are a non meat eater - what would you like to see happen ideally? Obviously an end to animal cruelty. But would you like to live in a world where we don't eat meat at all?

But would you like to live in a world where we don't eat meat at all?

For me it's all about personal choice. I'm veggie and can't stand the preachy ones who want EVERYONE to be veggie because they say so.