To say she can’t become a vegan yet

[funnyfairy360]

So my 10yr old DD has announced that she does not believe it is Ok to use animal products any more and from now on will not be eating/wearing/using anything made from animals or produced by animals. She does not even want to be ‘forced’ to sit on our leather couch. Now don’t get me wrong I’m all for her finding her own way in life but this is not just becoming vegetarian or going goth, becoming vegan is life changing and to be honest too inconvenient and expensive for me to make happen for her right now. She said she has the right to choose I say yes when she can pay for the products and cook the food herself .....she wants vegan friendly washing up liquid/shampoo/ soap/ clothes/this list could go on and on. None of the rest of us have any desire to go vegan.

[Summersup]

I have not allowed my dd (12) to become vegan after her becoming vegetarian two years ago- or at least, I am not prepared to cook her solely vegan food. She does not eat enough vegetables or protein as it is, and so dairy is an important source of protein for her. If she had a better vegetarian diet and/or was prepared to eat a wider range of pulses/lentils/proteins, it would be ok, but she isn't and lives off Quorn. She could refuse to eat dairy of course, I wouldn't make her eat it, but my feeling is she's secretly glad I put my foot down for now.

[KimCheesePickle]

Robojesus... the kinds of olive oil margarines that cost £1 have palm oil as one of their main ingredients. In order to make vegetable fat solid at room temperature you either have to use a saturated fat, so palm oil (unethical) or coconut oil (more expensive)... or use hydrogenated fats ie trans fats (health shitstorm)

www.sainsburys.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/gb/groceries/pure-olive-spread-500g?langId=44&storeId=10151&krypto=HlNh8kjXjXaT358gqEo1snCi2plrTxQ2SYWg2TTUIh79L6KJifk0bJZ6oJbNIxNs11JrAJbOn4T7jEeyuEkXOCqsHnOrUNZ2nIrW3M%2FvUzRZyDsNzt9zgtM%2B%2B4ug9JX4Sou5a8yn0mMgjjF9mA22AhxHGFio9UWYgCztqgXI7J0%3D&ddkey=https%3Agb%2Fgroceries%2Fpure-olive-spread-500g

(sorry for long link)

And to reiterate on the B12, you either need to eat fortified foods like some plant milks, marmite etc, or take supplements. You cannot rely on getting it from unwashed vegetables or fermented foods. The latter contain a pseudo form of B12, which can block the intake of genuine B12. B12 deficiency is pernicious (hence pernicious anaemia), you don't realise the damage till it's caught up with you. It's irreversible once it's too advanced and can cause nerve issues, depression and other mental health conditions.

[RoboJesus]

colditz exactly. You tried to discredit what I said by using a specific brand I've never even heard of.

[perper]

In the interest of fairness I feel I should also challenge misinformation on both sides..

do you know how long meat, especially red meat, stays in the gut, up to two to three years till the body can break it down

^ This isn't actually true (and the evidence surrounding dietary cholesterol is wobbly), but I generally agree with the rest of the post's sentiment, if not the 'facts'.

[Mumoftwoyoungkids]

Tell her that you will cook vegan meals if she plans meals that are fully nutrious, within budget and take maximum x amount of time to cook. There is no reason why you should take on the mental load for her ethical choices. If she wants the vegan household items, clothes etc the increase in cost can come out of her allowance/savings.

This.

Tell her that you are willing to let her do what she can but this is her project and her bEliefs so it will be her effort and time that will provide it.

If she finds a shampoo that is a similar price to your current one that is available from a shop you a,ready use then she can have it. Ditto washing powder once current stocks are used it. Etc etc.

Re: food. She needs to make a list of meals you currently cook and what she would like instead. She needs to research the ingredients to ensure that they are not more expensive, she needs to prove to you that with those meals she will get all nutrients she needs (and she needs to research exactly what they are) and she will need to help out with the cooking if producing a different p meal requires any extra work. This will be an extra chore on top of whatever chores she has right now. If she decides one day that she would rather watch the telly then that day she will get sausage, mash and peas like the rest of the family.

One of two things will happen -either she’ll throw herself into the project and provide you with folders worth - or she’ll go right off the whole idea. The first will be excellent educationally. The second will solve the problem.

[nokidshere]

It's totally ridiculous for people to be saying make her plan and cook her own meals. She is 10. Come to a compromise about what you are able to facilitate for her or for things that you are able to do together.

Changing everything in the house is not a feasible solution for you, but making some vegan or vegetarian meals might be. 10 is to young to know how serious she is really but there is no reason that you can't explore it with her. Absolutely agree that the things you already have in the house need using up before you buy more.

You could help her batch cook some vegan meals at the weekends that she can eat in the week without impacting on your time and resources.

[colditz]

Robojesus, Olivio is the best known brand of olive oil spread in the uk, I am baffled by your accusations.

[RoboJesus]

KimCheesePickle again a specific brand I've never used to try to discredit the whole thing. Which is just stupid

[Summersup]

Until recently, Quorn was not vegan, most of their products still aren't, but they have introduced a couple.

[Candlerow2018]

funnyfairy360 Your daughter sounds brilliant. If you support her in this, you're essentially showing her that yes she can make a difference to the world she lives in and take some social responsibility for the state of the planet and the treatment of others, what a wonderful opportunity to have! There is nothing not to "get" about veganism. Provided she eats a varied plant based diet she will receive all her vitamins and nutrients and this could set her up for a really healthy lifestyle. Vegan products (food, toiletries, beauty and cleaning) are all incredibly easy to find in most supermarkets these day and easy to cook. Re cleaning products, just look for the leaping bunny logo on the back of the product. There is even a cruelty free app that lists vegan brands. Own branded products such as Tesco, Superdrug etc tend to be cruelty free, and a number of eco brands are not only cruelty free but better for your family too, as they contain fewer chemicals.

Just to be clear, when you say that you aren't bothered about veganism "provided an animal isn't directly suffering" you need to rethink what this really means. Almost all products that contain animal product are cruelly produced, be under no illusions. Leather, for example, is a material people like to think of as being a byproduct of the meat industry, so they justify it to themselves by believing that no addition suffering was caused, that it is somehow less wasteful to wear leather and use all parts of the animal etc. This is not the case. Leather is an industry of it's own and is supplied by leather farms. Google the production of crocodile skin handbags for example, it will make your skin crawl. Hidden footage from abattoirs reveals the most appalling torture and abuse of animals by "bored" abattoir workers on a regular basis. I've seen reports of workers cutting off pigs' snouts whilst still alive and rubbing salt into them purely to extend the suffering. This is before the animals are stunned (which often doesn't work properly) and killed. These horrific acts take place daily and are rarely spoken of, because most people prefer not to think about the dark side of the meat, dairy and leather industries.

Massive credit to your daughter for refusing to play a part in the demand for inhumanely produced products. If this was my DD I'd be absolutely chuffed with her.

[AllyMcBeagle]

Robojesus, because it's not a brand you've ever used, it's a weird comment?

I'm not Robojesus but it's a bit of a weird comment given that it's not a vegan product and you mention it whilst making a big show of having said you've done your research which makes me doubt the quality of any of your research.

Anyway, Vitalite dairy free uses sustainable palm oil so should be orangutan friendly, but I agree with pp that just straight up oil is often better for cakes (not that I bake often).
www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/253250771

[colditz]

Robojesus, do you live in a hole or are you just allergic to supermarkets?

[RoboJesus]

You might want to read above you

[MissVanjie]

Lord some people are getting awfully salty

No one’s making anyone else go vegan, i don’t get why it’s so hard to respect other people’s choices. It’s funny, vegetarians and vegans get accused of being catsbum and preachy, but i see way more lashing out about what humans should and shouldn’t be eating from meat eaters determined to justify their choices, here and in real life.

[Jaxhog]

So mum now has to make 2 lots of meals? Mum has better things to do with her time. Kids need to learn that they can make these decisions, once they are catering for themselves. Until then, they eat what the family eats.

As for the vegans out there, would you make a meat dish for a 10 year old if they announced they didn't want to be a vegan anymore? Thought not.

[Racecardriver]

@colditz have to agree that vegan pasty is vile. Surely the whole point of pastry is to provide means by which you can consume an entire block of butter in one sitting? Same goes for margerine, utterly disgusting (and allegedly even worse for you than butter, something to do you hydrogenated fats or something?) just use olive oil instead I say.

Just thought of looking for a coconut oil based chocolate cake recipe, I quite like the combination of coconut and chocolate, could work well.

[Judester24]

Re Olivio. I've never bought it or heard of it, because I've been vegan for many years I'm unfamiliar with lots of brands that I'd never buy, maybe the pp is the same as me.

Unsustainable palm oil is damaging to orangoutangs, as dairy products are damaging to cows.
It's certainly a controversial subject, but hard to stomach meat eaters being so anti palm oil when they're happy to eat the bodies of many other species.

[Whaddyawantnow]

Tesco, sainsburys, waitrose and asda have all released massive amounts of new vegan product lately.
For vegan-friendly household items sainsburys, co-op and tesco own brand are good. Usually way cheaper than other stuff. But i wouldn’t sweat the household stuff in a non-vegan household too much. However, she absolutely has the right to decide that she doesn’t want to eat animal products anymore. Why not just cook the vegetable and carb part of the meal (with oil or vitalite spread instead of butter etc) and just cook her vegan sausages seperately and add to her portion, then add your meat to the rest? Get her some oat milk to use instead of cows milk etc. Lots of families do it, it honestly isn’t difficult. And even if the rest of you don’t want to go vegan you might wish to try some new foods, a lot of vegan foods in supermarkets atm are really fantastic.

[KimCheesePickle]

"sustainable" palm oil is anything but... it is nothing but a greenwashing PR façade for the palm oil industry. Palm oil is basically orang-utan lard, seeing as so many are killed by habitat clearance for the plantations.

Please show which vegan margarine costs £1 and is palm oil free.

[WhereYouLeftIt]

"she feels people need to change starting with our family and if we respected her (yes she really is just 10) then we would make more of an effort to change with her."
Wow, manipulative, much? I would turn that around on her, that if she respected the family she would make more of an effort to compromise.

And more of an effort to find out what compromises can be made and how much it is going to cost.

It's no good her just announcing that "from now on [she] will not be eating/wearing/using anything made from animals or produced by animals". She needs to come up with which alternatives she will be eating/wearing/using and what the impact on the rest of the family and the budget will be. I'd also be setting her the homework of working out a vegan diet that would give her all the nutrients she needs. She's 10, I'm sure she can use Google.

[Racecardriver]

@nokidshere that is the point. If she is old enough to make this decision then she is old enough to take responsibility for it (many ten year olds are capable of doing this BTW, it's not that difficult, just very time consuming. OP could teach her DD how to do it if she can't figure it out, although she should be able to, most ten year olds can use Google and do basic sums). If she us not old enough to deal with administrative load then she is not old enough to dictate to others.

[llangennith]

Most of you are clearly a lot nicer (weaker?) than I am! My DD then aged 11 told me she was going to be vegetarian from now on so I told her not while you live her you’re not. And that was the end of that. I didn’t discuss it with her as she was a child and me the grown up. Funnily enough she never did embrace the whole vegetarian thing when she was older.

[Candlerow2018]

WhereYouLeftIt it's almost as though you think the processed meat that features in so many children's dinners these days offers more nutrition than a varied vegan diet! The misconception than vegan diets are somehow nutritionally lacking is incredibly dated and has been disproved time and again. A well rounded plant based diet is packed full of nutrients and much more likely to get the recommended amount of veg into a child. If in doubt, chuck in a multivitamin a day to be extra safe.

I never understand why there is so much resistance from parents when a child wants to make a choice to avoid animal products. The extra meal prep really isn't onerous at all, simply make the same bases for meals, bolognese for example, then pop an extra pan on the hob. Pour some cheap, pre-cooked lentils into one, mince into the other...easy. I really don't see what's so difficult to accommodate and can only assume some parents see these choices as a personal attack on their own choice to eat meat and are being deliberately difficult...

The ridiculous suggestion that a 10 year old child should take responsibility for working their request into the budget or meal-planning is just obtuse and intentionally unaccommodating of a grown adult who should be supporting their child in making such a positive and responsible choice. Stop trying to punish a child for having an independent thought that differs to the family consensus.

[mac12]

Really interesting discussion.
I would say please listen to KimCheesePickle on the nutritional challenges of being vegan, especially regarding the amino acids and micro-nutrients essential to brain health. It really isn't as simple as popping a pill, particularly, I suspect, for a girl entering puberty with all the additional nutritional demands.

A previous poster said people have lived healthily as vegans for centuries - I'd be really interested to know which societies are vegan and if there have been any longitudinal health studies? I'm racking my brain but can't think of any but would be very interested to be told I'm wrong and to read the research

(Disclosure: been vegetarian for almost 40 years and have dabbled with veganism myself but certainly wouldn't allow my young kids to become vegan)

[TheMythicalChicken]

Jains are vegan. I work with a few Indians who are Jains and they follow a completely vegan diet. And their ancestors have done for centuries.