To feel sad that I can't support LGBT+ anymore

[loveyouradvice]

Just that really

I realised this when DD wanted to talk about Pride and my instant reaction was to talk about the brave Lesbian protest about lesbianism being same-sex attracted..... and all my DD wanted to talk about was the joy and the fun and how all her mates had a really good time....

And I realised that has gone for me... being engaged with the L & G community when I was younger was such a rich part of my life...

And I feel very sad to have lost this... the joy and the support...

And yes, as I write this I can see how selfish this sounds ... that I am sad it is no longer simple, that my automatic and heartfelt support of anything L & G and of Stonewall is no longer there.... that it is now divided and controvesial

Excluding a whole class of people is absolutely up to you; your personal choice.
But you don't have to give a reason for saying No to someone. If they push for a reason, they are being rude - No thank you should be enough.

(Getting everyone to understand that No thank you is enough and a refusal doesn't need to be justified or explained is campaign-worthy in itself).

But going on and on about the entire class of people you don't want to date or have sex with is rude. Maybe wait till you've been asked?

It's not about the protesters being 'ladylike' - it's the fact that they were not registered to march and could justifiably have been removed on those grounds. The fact that they weren't removed does come across as an open invitation for any bunch of arseholes to pull the same trick - and it's not like we have a shortage of arsehole groups who hate various different aspects of Pride...

But going on and on about the entire class of people you don't want to date or have sex with is rude.

What a bizarre interpretation of the facts.

The whole 'just say no' cop out line basically means:

It's fine for a certain faction of the TRA movement to harass, threaten, bully, coerce, nag, remove all wording that implies that female homosexuality exists and demand that female homosexuals get over themselves, abandon their right to homosexuality and accept penis. This culture and behaviour is fine.

All lesbians need to do is:

• Put up and shut up about the above at all times unless it is PERSONALLY addressed to them
• When it is, just say no
• Then take the consequences of saying no

It's the line of a violent male. The issue isn't that he beat you up - the issue is that you dared to TELL PEOPLE ABOUT IT.

It's indefensible anti-lesbian, homophobic victim blaming and minimising. The trans community have a choice here. Say 'this is a small group, they don't represent us, female homosexuals have every right to an exclusive sexuality, as do gay men, bi and straight people, and we won't tolerate this coercion and abuse within our midst'.

Or they can do what they're doing - wail that lesbians daring to speak the truth and stand up to abuse is upsetting for them because it makes them look bad. Which condones and validates the abuse, and makes the whole trans community culpable.

going on and on about the entire class of people you don't want to date or have sex with is rude.

And going on and on about an entire class of people you insist MUST date and have sex with penises even though they are homosexual is not just rude, it's sociopathic.

Are you even aware of your own double standards?

I don’t really understand what you mean - unless you’re referring to the likes of this:

But going on and on about the entire class of people you don't want to date or have sex with is rude. Maybe wait till you've been asked?

The thing is though, that I, as an old straight married woman am not badgered constantly by our fictional Dave from accounts. However it does happen from time to time that a man makes a move and I say no, and I receive no kickback. Because I am blanket not up for it.

Straight men are not receiving anything near the abuse lesbians are for not including transwomen in their partner pool - they’re not getting any significant kickback either, because men will just tell them to go take a hike.

But lesbians ARE on the receiving end of significant abuse for not including transwomen in their partner pool.

So there’s a significant difference between how each class is being treated here.

It’s almost as though lesbians are being used as validation and when they refuse men are turning violent. I think this IS worthy of discussion because it’s another facet of the same argument lesbians have faced in many different forms. It’s corrective rape, if you boil it down. It’s also symptomatic of how women need to explain themselves and aren’t allowed concrete boundaries. It’s inportant to talk about.

We also wouldn’t need to go on and on about our boundaries if other people respected them.

However, as a woman I’ve found people generally dont respect my boundaries for far too many things. So yes, I keep needing to reinforce them.

At the heart of this is a woman’s right to say no. That seems under threat right now.

There have always been ill-mannered people who sulk when they are turned down for a date/sexual encounter. There have always been people full of unwanted 'advice' about what others should do sexually, and who with. This isn't acceptable behaviour, but it's not exclusive to men, transwomen or any other specific group (apart from ill-mannered arseholes).

I think some people are conflating 'allowing trans women into lesbian social spaces' with 'not being able to politely refuse a polite request for a date, or an offer of a drink, without unpleasantness', which is not the same thing. If a person behaves badly in a club, they should be told to leave, but just being in a club isn't harming you. You don;t have to interact with anyone you don't want to interact with, whether that's someone who belongs to a class of people you don't want sex with, someone you don't find desirable or appealing because of that person's physical appearance, manners or something bad you know about them - or the ex who broke your heart or whatever.

Equally, if you ask someone for a dance or a date and they say no, you need to accept the refusal gracefully and move on, not ask them to justify or explain it.

So again:

It's fine for a certain faction of the TRA movement to harass, violently threaten, bully, coerce, nag, remove all wording that implies that female homosexuality exists and demand that female homosexuals get over themselves, abandon their right to homosexuality and accept penis. This culture and behaviour towards a whole group of people is fine.

All lesbians need to do is:

• Put up and shut up about the above at all times unless it is PERSONALLY addressed to them
• When it is, just say no
• Then take the consequences of saying no

Its fine that people are carrying baseball bats in blood stained t shirts to kill me with if I admit I'm lesbian and no, am never having sex with anyone with a penis. I just need to never admit in any of those people's hearing that I'm a lesbian, stay very closeted and hope to God they never find out, and then lie like hell and run for my life if one starts a conversation about people's sexuality or sexual choices.

Because that's a lovely, inclusive, perfectly ok way for gay women to have to live in 2018.

There is not a way to make this acceptable.

I grew up around lots of lesbian and gay people. I have been sad to see the hectoring and bullying behaviour towards various people in recent years by "activists", particularly towards people of faith who are not against them (some of which have been part of the gay rights lobby themselves in the past) and mums/dads (often feminists) who have a reasonable point to make about certain things that I guess I shouldn't get onto here.

What I don't let it do is sour me on the ordinary people - none of whom, as far as I can recall, have exhibited this hectoring bullying nastiness towards others. No it is the "activist" element of today that pick on people, silence people etc and frankly I think a lot of those people are like most activists, self-interested political creatures at heart - out to make a name for themselves.

The threats of violence are unacceptable, but that really is a small number of spiteful idiots. There is spite and idiocy on both sides of this discussion.

But how often do you have to discuss who you will and won't have sex with in a social setting? How often do you actually have to deal with anyone harassing you about your preferences (as opposed to asking you for a date and graciously accepting a refusal)?

And it is also true that for some people, their sexual orientation might change if they encounter an individual of the 'wrong' sex who they find immensely desirable. Sexual orientation isn't binary at all, and while it is fixed for some people, the vast majority are in the middle - if you are monogamous or serially monogamous this may never occur to you, because your sexual orientation is towards that partner you are in a longterm relationship with.

This is not to say that anyone must or should change - once again, everyone has the right to set their own boundaries - just that some people do change what they thought were their boundaries and that's OK too.

With the greatest respect, Reanimated, you're talking complete bollocks. Forums where lesbians congregate are full of accounts of lesbian groups being obliged to include men who identify as women, who then make everything about them.

The social dynamics of mixed sex groups are well established. Men tend to dominate. They talk more, they interrupt more. Transition doesn't change that. And men are inclined to sexual entitlement. Transition doesn't change that either.

Having men who identify as women in a previously all female group destroys the very nature of the group. Lesbians hate it. TRAs can be a pretty ruthless bunch, with their wire wrapped baseball bats, their vicious misogyny and their attacks on any lesbian who dares insist that she's same sex attracted.

Just as an online example, the lesbian sub Reddit's are now on, I think, their 4th iteration. All the previous ones were infiltrated by male lesbians, typically very organized techies, who become mods and then start deleting anything that doesn't go along with their agenda.

As I said upthread, even a suspicion of transphobia is social death in 'woke' circles. I read about a young lesbian who was ostracized after she reported being sexually assaulted by a transwoman she knows. Her women friends saw her attacker as far more vulnerable than her and made excuses for the piece of shit.

Seems wherever lesbians seek sanctuary, transwomen follow. They even destroyed Michfest, an amazing female only festival where women walked naked in the woods.

that really is a small number of spiteful idiots.

Then why isn't the community as a whole lining up to distance themselves from the spiteful idiocy and be clear it doesn't represent community beliefs?

There is spite and idiocy on both sides of this discussion.

Only one side is discussing raping, beating and killing. (Non compliant women. For not agreeing they have no right to Resist the Penis.)

There are many, many things that are social death in 'woke' circles. Silly students have always been silly about a variety of things because they are overzealous and intolerant and impatient. And, very sadly, women who speak out about abusers are frequently not supported and not believed.
But I've spent quite a lot of time in spaces that are either women-only or majority-women. Transwomen have been there some of the time (and given that I have never taken it upon myself to quiz anyone about their genitalia or chromosomes, there may have been many more than the ones who either mentioned it or were obvious-ish) and did not spoil things or upset people or make sex pests of themselves.
Trans people are people - and some of them are lovely and some of them are awful, just like any other category of human being.

Trans people are people - and some of them are lovely and some of them are awful, just like any other category of human being.

Obviously. And?

Try actually engaging with the debate a bit.

@BowlofBabelFish yes I agree.

When someone thinks you should not be entitled to not want sex with them for literally any bloody reason you like. ANY. REASON. it is (actually regardless of your sex or orientation) a rape mentality.

So, I'm kind of confused. These women with the banners, they don't sleep with penises, right? Or biological males, even if they have no penis but have something which is more akin to, say, a vagina? Does that mean their "dating pool" (whatever the bloody hell that means) must necessarily include born females who have taken testosterone since puberty? And even ones who have surgically created appendages that some would liken to an, er, penis?

So, this is why I'm confused, if this is about lesbian "dating pools" it's okay to insist that includes surgically approximated penises but totally not okay to include something that used to be a penis but now to all intents and purposes is nothing like one? Because being sexually attracted to that organ that looks like a female organ would mean they're no longer a lesbian but actually bi?

D'you know what, I really don't think there's any point trying to slap a label on anyone else's sexual orientation but your own, and the phrase "dating pool" is totally meaningless crap.

They keep saying you don't have to have sex with a penis but do these people not understand how dating sites are working these days? If a lesbian meets someone saying they are a lesbian but doesn't openly say that they're trans, how do you think that ends up? It means a lesbian having to say openly, I don't want to sleep with you during a date/in the bedroom. Then being labelled a bigot. This isn't just TRAs, it's all the 1000s of transwomen on gay dating sites that aren't open and honest, that then complain us lesbians are horrible and exclusionary when they're turned down.

When a man (or anyone else) knowingly tricks someone into sex without properly given, honestly obtained consent, that is rape.

When a man (or anyone else) thinks another human should not be entitled to date/not date whoever they want, for any reason they want, they have the mentality of a rapist whether they call it that or not.

You can't be politically "wrong" in who you will deny consent to sleep with you, nobody can be entitled to an equal opportunity to sleep with you, it literally doesn't matter what anyone's reasons are, and I think it's bonkers that anyone suggests otherwise - like there can be an argument.

Tripping I hope you take this as the genuine question that it is, but are there all that many trans women who you wouldn't suspect for a second were trans but still had penises? In my naivety I would have thought there was some correlation between really, convincingly passing and not having a penis. I also would have thought that the passing, bepenised lesbian trans woman was a remarkably small proportion of even the trans community. Am I horribly out of touch?

why oh why can we not just go back to divvying things up along the sex-segregation lines rather than the vague woolley constantly changing gender lines.....

I do NOT give a damn how people identify or what they do to create the persona they wish to be SO LONG AS IT DOES NOT HARM OTHER PEOPLE... and that to me is the bottom line

Realising what was happening to young lesbians who only wanted to date those of the female sex, and to be able to say NO to penises without being accused of being transphobic was one of the things that peak-transed me....

I'm old enough to remember aspects of 'political lesbianism' and lesbian separatism, and have read quite a bit on the subject. There seems to have been quite a bit of bullying, spite and generally poor behaviour among lesbians before the increase in trans activism: women being berated for refusing other women on the grounds that they just didn't want to date or have sex with that particular person; women being called traitors if they so much as spoke to a man, women being shamed for having had sex with men in the past...

@RatRolyPoly: very good point.
Also, people meeting people via Tindr or other online dating apps: surely everyone (who isn't horrible) accepts that you might meet face to face and find that the other person doesn't appeal to you sexually, so you politely decline any further interaction and go home.

Hi Rat. I can only speak from my own limited perspective, but of the transwomen I am aware of in my own social circles NONE of them have had medical intervention. At all. Whether they plan to change that or not, I don't know (and certainly none of my business). They definitely don't pass in the slightest face to face but their social media profiles are hugely deceptive with the aid of filters and careful angles. I do feel that's a huge issue in regards to online dating. I'm also probably biased by them as well as their behaviour is nothing other than stereotypically male. Dominating, argumentative and entitled. If you say anything you're a bigot. I can't speak for any other lesbians here, but it's quite telling how the lesbian groups are now filled with transwomen and teenagers and not grown 'natal' lesbians.

Interesting, thanks Tripping. I wonder if there aren't geographical forces at play here; I know a good number of lesbians and all of them bar two don't have the foggiest idea what I'm banging on about when I ask them about this. The other two (and their wives) are vociferous trans-inclusive feminist sorts.

I am out in the sticks though I s'pose.